对话吴碧瑄，前Tesla China总裁，30+家独角兽 VC，Apple China前总经理 @Veronica_WBre

Transcript

我加入Tesla的时候，Tesla那时候一年产量才不到一万台 When I joined Tesla, it was producing fewer than ten thousand cars a year.

0:04

那个时候呢，生产技术其实是不成熟的 Back then, the manufacturing technology wasn't mature.

0:08

我后来一直推他去做渠道，他到现在也不做渠道嘛 Later I kept pushing him to sell through dealers, and to this day he doesn't.

0:11

这也是我们两个一直分歧的一个关键 That was always the key point where the two of us disagreed.

0:14

你要根据中国的环境去适应中国的环境 You have to adapt to China's environment.

0:17

Elon就感觉很硬碰硬的那种感觉 Elon feels very head-on, very brute force.

0:19

这世界上永远不是说只有一条道，对吧 There's never only one path in this world, right?

0:22

他有他的道，然后他也做成功了 He has his way, and he made it work.

0:24

苹果是一家协作性极强的公司 Apple is an incredibly collaborative company.

0:29

这个苹果，从乔布斯在的时候和Tim在运营的时候 Apple with Jobs and Apple with Tim running it

0:32

是两个完全不同的苹果 were two completely different Apples.

0:34

我们的产品其实上已经没有那种真的创新性了 Our products no longer had that real innovation.

0:39

但是Tim，他是运营天才 But Tim, he is an operational genius.

0:42

跟Tim去做运营复盘的时候，大家都很紧张 When you did an operations review with Tim, everybody was scared.

0:46

Naval是一个很聪明的人 Naval is a very smart person.

0:47

智慧唯一真正的检验，是你能否从生活中得到你想要的 The only true test of intelligence is if you get what you want out of life.

0:51

AngelList最早就聊到它怎么来的嘛 We talked about how AngelList came about.

0:53

他说真的，他就说最早就是一个list He said at first it really was just a list.

0:56

我们当时做的这个deal，就是你必须让我能占你的股份 The deal we made was that you had to give me a stake in the company.

1:00

我们当时可能是AngelList最大的外部投资人 We were probably the largest outside investor in AngelList.

1:03

你要是不在那个顶级项目源里面，你还不如不做 If you're not in the top deal flow, you might as well not do it.

1:07

因为你肯定会亏钱 Because you're gonna lose money for sure.

1:09

任何一个东西，技术啊什么的，都是一个指数曲线 Anything, technology and so on, follows an exponential curve.

1:13

比如说COVID的疫苗，就是生物制造的 Like the COVID vaccine, it's biomanufactured.

1:16

我们测序的第一个DNA花了十几个月 The first DNA we sequenced took over ten months.

1:19

现在测序几分钟 Now sequencing takes minutes.

1:21

如果地球的生命是一年的话，人类只是最后一秒 If the life of the Earth were one year, humans would be the last second.

1:24

他想离开地球 He wants to leave Earth.

1:25

我的想法是怎么让我们能和我们的地球共处，然后能够生存得更久 My idea is how we can coexist with our Earth and survive longer.

1:30

你到底是怎么样想，就是现在这个时间点要做这件事情 What made you decide to do this at this point in time?

1:34

到了一个程度，它实际上开始解锁 At a certain point, it actually starts to unlock.

1:37

那再往前，它就会解锁得越来越快 And from there, it unlocks faster and faster.

1:42

特意去买了两个枕头，就是为了在这儿萎着的时候舒服点儿 I specially bought two pillows so we can sit back comfortably here.

1:46

我先聊一个最重要的话题，就是我想知道那45分钟到底都讲了些什么 Let me start with the most important topic: what did you talk about in those 45 minutes?

1:53

我特别好奇 I'm so curious.

1:54

你说跟Elon？ You mean with Elon?

1:55

对，跟Elon那45分钟，怎么能聊到45分钟呢？ Yes, those 45 minutes with Elon. How could you talk for 45 minutes?

1:59

我都不是太记得那么清楚，但是一开始我们 I don't remember it all that clearly, but at the start,

2:03

最早开始的时候，一开始他问到我，就是关于我的过往 at the very beginning, he asked me about my history.

2:08

因为你要看我的过往的话，就是为什么 Because if you look at my history, the question is why.

2:13

我记得他第一个问的问题就是，我为什么选了那些 I remember his very first question was why I chose those jobs,

2:18

就每一个工作，我的原因是什么，为什么迈出下一步 each one, and what my reason was for making the next move.

2:23

然后那个时候呢，我是从，等于是从Academia 到McKinsey Back then I had gone from academia to McKinsey,

2:27

然后从McKinsey到Motorola then from McKinsey to Motorola,

2:29

然后从Motorola去的Apple and then from Motorola to Apple.

2:31

所以我大概给了他一个大概的这么一个 So I gave him a rough picture

2:36

为什么我的选择吧，每一次我选择的原因 of why I made my choices, the reason each time.

2:41

其中很大一部分，就是实际上我自己 A big part of it was that I myself

2:44

那个时候也看到，就是我其实是一个挺在乎 realized back then that I really care

2:49

我做的事情是不是会有真正的impact whether what I do has real impact,

2:52

是别人看得到的 and that other people can see,

2:53

而不是说像我在Academia 的时候做的这个半导体生产厂的优化 rather than, like in academia, optimizing semiconductor fabs.

3:02

其实你说它有没有经济影响？ Did it have economic impact?

3:04

它是肯定有，因为那个时候这个光刻机是很贵的嘛 It definitely did, because lithography machines were very expensive back then,

3:09

都是一百万一台，所以你要能优化 a million dollars each. So if you could optimize...

3:12

当时我们都算了，就为什么他那么愿意付我们钱啊 We calculated it at the time. That's why they were so willing to pay us.

3:16

就是你要能优化这个生产的 If you can optimize production

3:19

哪怕是1%都是很多的钱，对吧？因为那个是固定的成本 by even 1%, that's a lot of money, right? Because it's a fixed cost.

3:24

然后你能优化它的使用率的话 So if you can optimize its utilization,

3:27

那就一下子就是很多的钱 that's suddenly a lot of money.

3:29

但是可能我的性格来讲 But maybe it's my personality.

3:33

我就觉得解决这个问题 I felt that this problem

3:35

这个问题不是大家平常都会天天碰到的 wasn't something people run into every day,

3:39

也不一定大家理解这个问题 and people don't necessarily understand

3:41

为什么会有那么大的价值 why it's so valuable.

3:43

所以我觉得在我去跟别人沟通说我在做什么的时候 So when I tried to explain to people what I was doing,

3:47

别人根本听不懂我在干什么 they had no idea what I was doing,

3:48

所以也看不到真正的影响 so they couldn't see the real impact.

3:52

所以我觉得我那个时候 I think back then

3:54

可能我还是主要是一个工程师 I was still mainly an engineer.

3:56

我觉得就是希望能解决一些实际的问题 I wanted to solve practical problems.

3:59

就包括我最早为什么选择这个OR也是 That's also why I chose OR in the first place.

4:03

因为我学数学嘛，数学对我来讲很容易 I studied math, and math was easy for me.

4:06

OR是什么？ What's OR?

4:07

Operations Research Operations Research,

4:09

就是运筹学嘛 operations research.

4:11

那运筹学本身就是很多的优化，对吧 It's a lot of optimization, right?

4:15

那我当时其实选择这个在本科 I chose it as an undergraduate

4:18

也是因为我第一次发现说 because it was the first time I realized,

4:20

哦，数学可以去解决实际问题 oh, math can solve real problems,

4:23

而不是说只是天天做这个证明啊 instead of just doing proofs every day

4:26

做什么这些东西 and that sort of thing,

4:28

然后做些理论的东西 theoretical stuff.

4:29

所以我其实 So actually,

4:30

我发现我这个人可能更多是偏应用的 I found I'm more of an applied person.

4:32

所以当时我就跟他第一个 So with him, first,

4:35

我觉得第一个系列的问题就是 I think the first series of questions was

4:37

为什么我做了那些选择 why I made those choices,

4:39

然后我做了那些选择的原因 the reasons behind them,

4:41

动力是什么 and what drove me.

4:42

我觉得他想知道就是说一个人到底什么东西是你的动机 I think he wanted to know what really motivates a person.

4:47

然后当然了，就从那个对话开始 And of course, from that conversation,

4:51

我们就可能也跑题了一下 we went off on a bit of a tangent

4:54

就是讲到苹果 and talked about Apple.

4:56

因为我当时确实也 Because back then I really,

4:58

因为我也是挺有意思 well, it's quite interesting.

5:00

因为我进到苹果的时候 When I joined Apple,

5:03

乔布斯还在嘛 Steve Jobs was still there.

5:05

然后那个时候我跟他，因为乔布斯已经过世了 And when I talked with him, Jobs had already passed away.

5:08

然后我就跟他讲到了就我自己 So I told him about my own view,

5:12

从我个人的角度 from my personal perspective:

5:13

这个苹果从乔布斯在的时候和后来Tim在管的时候 Apple under Jobs and Apple later under Tim

5:19

是两个完全不同的苹果 were two completely different Apples.

5:20

就我自己的感受 My own feeling was

5:22

我们的产品其实上已经没有那种真的创新性了 our products no longer had that real innovation.

5:26

但是Tim的强项就是 But Tim's strength was

5:28

其实他的运营 operations,

5:31

然后可以scale being able to scale.

5:32

然后包括苹果今天能增长这么大 including how Apple has grown so big today.

5:35

但你看现在的苹果其实 But look at Apple now:

5:37

它的硬件销售已经占小于50%了 hardware sales are already less than 50%.

5:41

大部分都是什么App Store Most of it is the App Store,

5:43

然后什么内容、iTunes content, iTunes,

5:45

然后这些内容销售 content sales like that.

5:47

所以实际上已经不是 So it's really no longer,

5:49

已经不再是一个硬件 no longer a hardware

5:51

就是产品生产厂 product maker.

5:52

它是更多是服务和内容了 It's more about services and content now.

5:54

所以实际上 So really,

5:56

这些东西就是可能需要运营的 these things need operations,

5:59

就是Tim的强项 which is Tim's strength.

6:00

所以当时我们就提到就是说 So we brought that up.

6:03

我个人 I said that personally,

6:04

从我个人的角度 from my own perspective,

6:05

我觉得苹果在乔布斯在的那个时代的时候 Apple in the Steve Jobs era

6:10

是我个人很有热情的一个公司 was a company I was really passionate about.

6:14

然后在乔布斯离开了以后 After Jobs left,

6:15

我对它的产品就失去了那种 I lost that, for its products,

6:18

我觉得它的产品失去了那种创新性 I felt its products lost that innovation.

6:21

所以对我来讲 So for me,

6:22

我就不是那么特别的 I wasn't especially

6:25

对它那么有激情了 excited about it anymore.

6:28

而实际上那次也是正好在之前 And it so happened that right before,

6:31

我见Elon前一天 the day before I met Elon,

6:34

我是在Fremont I was in Fremont

6:35

然后是我第一次试驾了 for my first test drive.

6:37

你们是在那见的？对对对 You met there? Right, right.

6:39

我在SpaceX，在LA I was at SpaceX, in LA.

6:41

就是SpaceX去面试的 I interviewed at SpaceX.

6:44

然后就是我后来就 And then,

6:46

他有一个特别大的角落 he had a really big corner,

6:48

而且他没有办公室 and no office.

6:49

但全是开放的 It was all open.

6:50

然后但是他那个角落，工厂里？不是 But his corner... In the factory? No,

6:52

他就在SpaceX那个办公室 it was in the SpaceX office.

6:55

SpaceX办公室呢 The SpaceX office

6:56

是就全部开放的 was completely open.

6:58

其实他在那个Fremont也是 Even in Fremont,

7:00

他其实没有自己的真正封闭的办公室 he didn't really have his own closed office.

7:02

他就是有一个特别大的开放的桌子啊，你知道吗？ He just had a really big open desk, you know?

7:06

就他自己有一个角落那样子 He had his own corner,

7:08

很大的一个角落就是 a really big corner,

7:10

可能其实比办公室还大 maybe even bigger than an office.

7:11

但是不管怎样 But anyway.

7:12

那这就很容易看起来是开放的所有的事情，对啊 So everything looks open, right.

7:15

所以大家也能看见 So everyone can see.

7:17

所以为什么我觉得就是 That's why I think

7:18

大家知道说 everyone knew

7:20

他在那待了没有 whether he was there or not.

7:22

没有这种等级的感觉，对 There's no sense of hierarchy. Right.

7:24

他就是要营造这样一个感觉，那蛮好的 He wants to create that feeling. That's nice.

7:27

然后他那个之前 And before that,

7:29

前一天我在Fremont the day before, I was in Fremont,

7:30

然后我去试驾了那个Tesla and I test-drove the Tesla.

7:33

我就记得特别 I remember it so well.

7:34

那一天给我的印象很久 That day left a lasting impression on me.

7:36

我进到了这个Tesla I got into the Tesla,

7:38

当时那个Model S车里面 the Model S back then,

7:40

然后开起来以后 and once I started driving,

7:41

我就突然就感觉 it suddenly hit me:

7:42

这就是未来 this is the future.

7:44

然后就是 That's,

7:45

就真的是给我这个感觉 that's really the feeling it gave me.

7:46

然后就是它的那个产品的那种震撼力 The sheer impact of the product.

7:49

然后所以我就 So I,

7:50

所以我就跟他讲了 so I told him about it.

7:52

就是我当时自己觉得苹果的产品 I told him how I felt about Apple's products.

7:57

其实Tim也是一个非常好的 Tim is really great, too.

7:59

Tim是运营天才，真的是，真的是 Tim is an operational genius, really, truly.

8:04

你跟Tim去做运营复盘的时候 When you did an operations review with Tim,

8:07

大家都很紧张 everybody was scared.

8:08

就我记得我们那个时候给他做复盘，我们都是 I remember preparing reviews for him back then.

8:12

有一次我们做复盘 Once, when we did a review,

8:13

我们都会看 we were looking at

8:13

是第120版 version 120.

8:16

因为你真的得把你所有的数字都对齐 Because you really have to get all your numbers in line.

8:20

因为Tim就是他是极其 Tim is incredibly...

8:22

就是他对那个数字是特别敏感，他能 he's extremely sensitive to numbers.

8:25

就你给他这个 You give him

8:27

一个20页的都是数据的东西 a 20-page document full of data,

8:29

他能告诉你哪页的 and he can tell you which page

8:30

你的那个数据是错的，就他 has the wrong numbers.

8:32

他就是 He's,

8:33

他真的是一个运营天才，但是呢，就是说 he really is an operational genius. But

8:36

他的这个领导的风格 his leadership style

8:38

和我能够让我受到激励的风格 and the style that inspires me

8:40

正好是不一样的 are just different.

8:41

就是让我 For me,

8:43

可能也是因为我是做数学的 maybe because I'm a math person,

8:45

所以对我来讲 for me,

8:46

这个不是 it's not,

8:47

就我更喜欢那个 I'm more drawn to

8:49

可能我不会做的 things I can't do,

8:50

或者没有这个能力的 or don't have the ability to do.

8:52

所以对我来讲就是 So for me,

8:54

我失去了对苹果产品的热情 I lost my passion for Apple's products.

8:57

所以那个时候就变成 So at that point,

9:00

我就 I,

9:01

我就给他讲就是 I told him

9:02

我真的是觉得 I really felt,

9:04

我觉得苹果就是完全一个不同的苹果了 I felt Apple had become a completely different Apple.

9:07

然后对我来讲 And for me...

9:07

但是那个时期 But by that period,

9:08

其实创造的部分 the creative part,

9:10

这个Steve Jobs Steve Jobs

9:11

他已经相当于给自己结束了 had essentially brought it to a close himself.

9:13

然后后面都是有一种维持的感觉 After that, it all felt like maintenance.

9:16

但是你不知道啊 But you don't know,

9:17

因为他去世了 because he passed away,

9:18

所以你就不知道了 so you'll never know.

9:19

因为他其实 Because actually,

9:20

Tim可能会知道吧 maybe Tim would know.

9:22

Tim不是一个产品型的人 Tim isn't a product person.

9:25

他不是一个做产品的人，所以 He's not a product person, so

9:27

我们其实聊过这个话题 we actually had that conversation.

9:29

就是我当时跟Elon说 I told Elon at the time,

9:31

Tim很棒 Tim is great,

9:32

但是他不是一个做产品的人 but he's not a product person.

9:35

然后这一点我觉得 And on this point, I think

9:36

Elon是同意的 Elon agreed.

9:38

所以就 So,

9:39

我们聊了一点这个 we talked about that a little bit.

9:41

然后我们就谈到进入中国 Then we talked about entering China,

9:43

进入中国 entering China,

9:44

中国的一些 some of the

9:46

实际上的一些问题 practical issues there,

9:47

尤其中国的政府 especially the Chinese government,

9:49

应该怎么解决 and how to deal with it.

9:49

因为他也看了我给他写的 Because he had read what I wrote him.

9:51

我不是之前写了一个1500字的文章 I'd written a 1,500-word essay.

9:53

他要了一个1500字的文章 He asked for a 1,500-word essay

9:56

在你跟他面试之前，然后 before you interview with him.

9:58

那那个是有什么要求，就是说？ Were there any requirements for it?

10:00

就是他说要少于1500字 He just said less than 1,500 words,

10:02

然后你给我讲 and then tell me,

10:02

你讲一些什么？他就是 Tell him what? He said,

10:04

你讲进入中国 tell me, to enter China,

10:05

我应该干什么 what should I do?

10:07

就你的策略，对 Your strategy. Right.

10:09

所以我给他写了一个东西 So I wrote him something,

10:11

然后这个东西呢 and in it,

10:12

其实我就提到了三点 I raised three points.

10:14

其中第一点呢 The first one

10:15

就是你的品牌定位 was your brand positioning.

10:17

因为我说你在中国的品牌定位 I said your brand positioning in China

10:19

肯定是跟你美国不一样的 will definitely be different from the US.

10:21

因为中国是这样的 Because in China,

10:23

就你这个产品 take your product,

10:24

在这么这个价 at this kind of price,

10:26

十万美金，对吧 a hundred thousand dollars, right,

10:28

至少以上的，这样的一个 at least, something like that.

10:30

你的目标 Your target

10:31

就是非常高学历的人群 is very highly educated people

10:34

然后而且很有钱的 who have a lot of money,

10:36

很可能也大多是跨国背景的 likely also mostly multinational.

10:40

因为就是你当地的一些人 Because some local people

10:43

可能还不知道你的技术有多好 may not know yet how good your technology is,

10:45

也不会那么对Elon那么崇拜 and won't idolize Elon that much.

10:48

反而是那些就是对国外有一些了解的人可能会，而且呢 It's people who know the outside world who might. And

10:53

在中国 in China,

10:53

因为中国的 because in China,

10:54

你也知道就是中国的服务的 as you know, service,

10:57

就是汽车的服务 car service,

10:58

实际上是完全不一样的跟美国 is completely different from the US.

11:01

你看中国的像奔驰经销店 Look at a Mercedes dealership in China.

11:03

你走进去 You walk in,

11:04

那就是一个豪华的体验，对吧 and it's a luxury experience, right?

11:08

所以我说你要是 So I said,

11:10

你是要跟这些人竞争的 you're competing with these guys.

11:13

然后所以我说你要 So I said you need to

11:15

就是找到你的对象更多的是那种 find an audience that's more

11:19

这种高学历 highly educated,

11:21

就是海外留学的 foreign-educated,

11:22

可能跨国公司的这些经理 maybe managers at multinationals.

11:27

这个就是你要很清楚你的对象是谁 You have to be very clear about who your audience is,

11:29

而且你要给他的这个信息和其他 and the message you give them, versus others.

11:33

因为那些人相对来的可能对服务啊 Because those people would relatively care less

11:36

和这些东西也不会那么在意 about service and such things.

11:38

因为你一开始进到中国 Because when you first enter China,

11:40

你肯定是 you definitely

11:42

你这些东西都不全嘛 won't have all of this in place,

11:44

然后你也做不到 and you can't deliver it.

11:44

那时候连充电桩都没办法充分，对啊 Back then there weren't even enough chargers. Right.

11:46

所以我就说就是他得愿意能够克服很多的东西 So I said the customer has to be willing to overcome a lot.

11:50

不像美国相对来讲 Unlike the US, relatively speaking,

11:53

当时他其实在美国当时也还没有完全的那种，那么 although in the US it wasn't fully there yet either.

11:57

但是至少在美国他的价位的话 But at least in the US, at its price point,

11:59

其实也算比较高端 it was fairly high-end.

12:02

但是 But,

12:03

但是就是总的来讲的话 overall,

12:05

就是还是有一些不一样的 there were still some differences.

12:07

因为美国的话比如说他可能是科技圈的人士，这个 In the US, for example, they might be tech people.

12:10

当然中国可能也是科技的会比较多 Of course in China there'd be a lot of tech people too,

12:12

但是跨国的什么这些都有可能 but also multinational people and others.

12:16

这是第一个 That was the first point.

12:16

我说你的营销的对象和你营销的信息 I said your marketing target and your marketing message

12:20

可能跟你美国的定位是不太一样的 may differ from your positioning in the US.

12:22

第二个我跟他讲了 The second thing I told him

12:24

其实这个后来也变成我们两个的一个 later actually became something between us.

12:28

我觉得可能是一个 I think it may be

12:31

后来为什么造成我们两个分歧 why the two of us ended up disagreeing.

12:33

我其实跟他讲了一个 I told him,

12:35

已经讲了一个事情 I'd already told him one thing:

12:36

就是在中国 in China,

12:38

我认为他要考虑渠道的合作 I thought he had to consider partnering with dealers.

12:42

因为所有的 Because all the...

12:43

供应商方面的什么？ On the supplier side?

12:46

就是代理商这个问题 It's the dealer question.

12:48

因为他在美国是一个直销的模式嘛 In the US he has a direct sales model.

12:51

然后我 And I,

12:52

其实但他现在一直也都坚持直销的模式 well, he still insists on direct sales today.

12:55

但是我跟他讲就是说 But I told him

12:57

其实很多的美国公司，包括戴尔 many American companies, including Dell,

13:01

之前一直坚持直销 had always insisted on direct sales,

13:03

但是直到 Dell（戴尔）改变了 until Dell changed.

13:05

因为 Dell 说他美国就是直销嘛 Dell did direct sales in the US,

13:07

所以他一直不肯做分销 so it kept refusing to do distribution.

13:09

然后后来到了 Then later,

13:10

应该是 it was,

13:14

二十.... about twenty years ago,

13:15

就是二零零.....快到二零零几年以后 around 2000 or the early 2000s.

13:19

我在想是2000年的时候 I think it was around 2000,

13:22

还是就是差不多90年代末 or roughly the late '90s.

13:24

他才最后让步 It finally gave in

13:26

说我在中国用渠道 and sold through distributors in China,

13:28

结果他一下就成长了 and it grew right away.

13:29

就是说我说在中国实际上 So I said that in China,

13:31

渠道是有 distributors really matter.

13:33

包括苹果 Even at Apple,

13:33

我们那个时候苹果99%都是渠道 99% of our business back then went through distributors.

13:38

那时候因为我 Because back then,

13:39

那时候苹果Apple Retail很新的 Apple Retail was very new.

13:42

Apple Retail（零售）是08 Apple Retail was '08,

13:43

09年才进到中国的 '09 before it came to China.

13:45

就很晚 Very late.

13:46

之前Apple没有在中国？没有 Apple wasn't in China before that? No,

13:48

没有直销的队伍 it had no direct sales team.

13:49

所以我就跟他讲 So I told him,

13:51

我说这个直销其实在中国很困难的 direct sales in China is actually very hard,

13:55

而且是有很多风险 and it carries a lot of risk.

13:57

所以我说你这个利用渠道 So I said selling through dealers

13:59

实际上是一个不同的模式嘛 is a different model.

14:01

但是这个他反正没说太多 He didn't say much about it, anyway.

14:05

然后最后我跟他讲到政府 Finally, I talked to him about the government.

14:07

然后我们就讨论 We discussed it.

14:08

他说美国有 He said the US has...

14:09

我说中国的政府跟美国的政府还是不一样的，然后 I said the Chinese government is different from the US government.

14:14

而且在中国 And in China,

14:15

这政府关系是一定很重要 government relations are definitely very important.

14:18

而作为外企更是吗？ Even more so for a foreign company?

14:20

非常的重要 Extremely important.

14:21

所以我说在中国你一定要跟中国 So I said in China, you have to work with China.

14:23

但是政府也是很复杂的 But the government is also very complex.

14:25

中国的就是中央政府和地方政府 In China, there's the central government and the local governments,

14:28

还有就是说省政府 and then the provincial governments

14:29

还有市政府都是不太一样的 and city governments are all different.

14:32

其实每个政府有它自己不同政府的要求 Each government has its own requirements,

14:35

你要去应对这个东西，在中国 and you have to navigate that in China.

14:37

但是你中央政府一定要搞好关系 But you must have good relations with the central government.

14:40

中央搞不好，在中国就真的是寸步难行 Without that, you really can't take a single step in China.

14:44

跟美国还是不太一样 It's different from the US.

14:46

美国因为它是联邦政府 The US has a federal government,

14:48

它不太一样 so it's different.

14:49

你是跟不同的州政府在打交道 You deal with different state governments,

14:52

而且州和州之间还有竞争 and states compete with each other.

14:54

在中国的话 In China,

14:56

你没有就是国家的这个支持 without the state's support,

14:59

就是在国家级的这个支持 national-level support,

15:02

你这个省实际上很难实行的 it's very hard to make anything happen in a province.

15:07

所以呢 So,

15:08

但是它的好处是当然它是电动车 but the upside, of course, was that it's an electric vehicle,

15:10

正好是中国当时在推的一个东西 which China happened to be pushing at the time.

15:13

所以我也觉得这是一个很好的顺风 So I thought it was a great tailwind.

15:15

所以跟他讲 I told him that,

15:16

他也讲了一些他在美国 and he talked about some of his experience in the US

15:18

实际上跟州政府的一些 with state governments,

15:20

包括他那个时候在德州 including Texas at the time,

15:23

反而是他最困难的 which was actually the hardest for him.

15:25

因为德州为了保护这个当地的这个经销商 Because Texas protects its local dealers,

15:29

因为他是一个直销的 and he does direct sales,

15:31

他必须要在德州建一个 he had to set up in Texas a...

15:34

Tesla是唯一 Tesla is the only...

15:35

德州是他唯一一个州 Texas was the only state

15:36

他是有这个分销执照的 where he had this distribution license.

15:39

因为他也不想通过别人 He didn't want to go through anyone else,

15:41

所以他自己最后搞了一个分销执照 so in the end he got a distribution license himself

15:44

所以他自己去卖自己的车 and sold his own cars.

15:46

他不希望给别人去卖嘛，他就一直 He didn't want others selling them. He has always,

15:48

这个倒是一直坚持的 always insisted on that,

15:50

就是他要直销 on direct sales.

15:51

我就好奇他为什么从最开始就这么坚持这件事 I'm curious why he insisted on it from the very beginning.

15:53

他的思路到底是在哪呢？ What was his thinking?

15:56

我后来 Later on,

15:58

但是我 but I,

15:59

我觉得这个 I think,

16:01

我后来看 looking back,

16:02

我觉得有几个原因 I think there were a few reasons,

16:03

实际上我后来觉得也说得通 and later they made sense to me.

16:07

第一个呢 The first one

16:08

实际上 is that,

16:10

就是我加入Tesla的时候 when I joined Tesla,

16:12

Tesla那时候一年产量才不到一万台，对吧？2013... it made fewer than ten thousand cars a year, right?

16:18

2013年才一共 In 2013,

16:20

一共就生产了四千到五千台 it produced only four to five thousand cars in total.

16:22

2014年的时候就我进入到 In 2014, when I joined,

16:24

我进到2014年的时候 when I came in, in 2014,

16:26

我们全球好像生产的是大概一万台左右 I think we produced roughly ten thousand globally.

16:29

不管怎样 Anyway,

16:30

就生产的很少 very few.

16:31

然后那个时候呢 And back then,

16:33

几个问题 there were a few problems.

16:35

生产技术其实是不成熟的，所以呢 The manufacturing technology wasn't mature, so

16:37

我们的车 our cars,

16:38

其实那个时候 back then,

16:39

我记得到了中国 I remember when they arrived in China,

16:41

有各种各样的问题 had all kinds of problems.

16:43

我们必须要做了很多事情 We had to do a lot of work

16:45

才能把这个车做到说 to get the cars to the point where

16:47

我可以交付 we could deliver them.

16:48

所以 So

16:49

质量上实际上 in terms of quality,

16:50

实际上不是完全的能够把关 it couldn't be fully guaranteed.

16:52

Tesla的车现在这种量产和这种效率已经完全不一样了，但是 Tesla's mass production and efficiency today are completely different, but

16:58

那个时候实际上还没有达到那个程度 back then it wasn't there yet.

17:02

量产的这个质量啊 Mass production quality,

17:04

就不管它是质量控制和各方面 whether quality control or anything else,

17:07

都还是有各种各样的运营上的问题的 still had all kinds of operational problems.

17:10

就和你要和那些大的 Compared with the big ones,

17:13

我觉得就是像GM（General Motors) 这种厂商去比较它的生产的质量控制 manufacturers like GM, on production quality control,

17:17

什么这些可能还是差了很多的 it was still far behind,

17:20

成熟度也不到 and not mature enough.

17:21

所以 So

17:23

我觉得它有一部分的原因 I think part of the reason,

17:26

我个人是觉得是 personally,

17:27

它不希望给到这个别人 is that he didn't want to hand it to others.

17:31

它因为给到别人 Because if you give it to others,

17:32

给到经销商的话 to dealers,

17:33

经销商就知道你的车的问题了 the dealers will know your car's problems.

17:35

所以它不希望把这个数据给到别人 So he didn't want to give that data to others.

17:38

这是第一个 That's the first reason.

17:38

这也是一个知识产权这么一种保护吧 That's also about intellectual property.

17:40

也不光是知识产权 It's not just intellectual property.

17:42

就是它不希望 He didn't want...

17:44

就是你想中国人不是讲的 You know how Chinese people say,

17:45

这个家丑不可以外扬 don't air your dirty laundry in public.

17:47

所以 So

17:47

所以我觉得实际上有一部分是这个原因 I think that was part of the reason,

17:51

就我后来想了 when I thought about it later.

17:52

其实我后来包括我 Actually, later on, I

17:53

后来一直推他去做渠道 kept pushing him to sell through dealers,

17:56

他到现在也不做渠道嘛 and to this day he doesn't.

17:57

这也是我们两个一直分歧的一个关键 That's been a key disagreement between us.

18:00

我觉得当时 At the time,

18:01

就是我不太明白 I didn't quite understand.

18:03

因为你可以利用 Because you could use...

18:04

你要做渠道的话 if you go through dealers,

18:05

还有一个好处 there's another benefit.

18:06

就像我们那时候在苹果 Like we did at Apple back then,

18:07

你去利用渠道的资金啊，那时候 you use the dealers' capital.

18:09

而且那时候Tesla又没钱 And Tesla didn't have money back then.

18:12

就是现金还是比较紧张，比较 Cash was pretty strapped.

18:14

其实Tesla后来也出现了好几次 In fact, Tesla later had several times

18:17

这个现金 when its cash,

18:18

现金流实际上是有一定的问题的 its cash flow, had real problems.

18:21

那所以我就觉得说 So I thought,

18:23

你这样你可以少占用你自己的现金嘛 this way you tie up less of your own cash.

18:26

你让这个经销商都帮你付了，然后 You let the dealers pay for it,

18:29

而且他们来去 and they can handle

18:31

就是各地政府 the local governments.

18:33

我们只需要专注这个中央政府 We'd only need to focus on the central government.

18:35

那各地政府 As for local governments,

18:36

你用经销商来去替你去打 you let the dealers deal with them for you.

18:39

而且他们 And they,

18:40

就中国讲强龙难敌地头蛇，对吧 as the Chinese saying goes, a mighty dragon can't beat a local snake, right?

18:43

这些人本身在当地他是有关系的 These people already have local connections,

18:45

所以他是可以把当地安排好 so they can arrange things locally.

18:47

你不用再去 You don't have to,

18:49

你要做 you'd have to...

18:50

我们作为 We, as a...

18:51

如果是我们直销的话 if we do direct sales,

18:52

就那个时候我是挺累的 I was really exhausted back then.

18:54

就是所有的城市我都得去 I had to go to every city.

18:57

我都得去见 I had to go meet

18:58

每一个城市的市长啊什么的 every city's mayor and so on,

19:00

各方面的 all sorts of people.

19:01

然后包括我们的这个政府关系的 And our government relations,

19:04

就是政府关系的团队 our government relations team,

19:05

都得去照应 had to cover all of it.

19:07

因为你 Because,

19:08

因为在中国它就是这么一个过程 in China, that's just how it works.

19:11

你必须要跟当地政府有这个关系 You need a relationship with the local government.

19:14

你没有的话 Without it,

19:15

你当地很多事情都是很难做 a lot of things locally are hard to get done,

19:17

包括一个执照都很难做 even getting a license.

19:18

可能是把这个美国的模式 Maybe he wanted to take the American model

19:20

想搬到中国 and bring it to China.

19:21

没想到中国和美国这个州和省啊 He didn't realize US states and Chinese provinces,

19:23

这个中央，感觉还是不太一样的，对 and the central government, feel quite different. Right.

19:26

我觉得而且他对中国的这个 And I think his view of China,

19:28

但是他后来还是一直坚持 but he kept insisting anyway,

19:29

但是最后也做了 and in the end it got done.

19:30

但是就是很累嘛，然后我 But it was exhausting. And for me,

19:33

你想我们中国人讲四两拨千斤 we Chinese say four ounces can move a thousand pounds.

19:35

对我来讲就是 To me, it's about

19:36

你怎么样能够用少的资源 how you can use fewer resources

19:39

做到更好的效果 to get better results.

19:40

然后我觉得实际上在中国 And I think in China,

19:42

这个方式是用到渠道 the way to do that is through distributors,

19:45

用到这个这些方式 to use these approaches.

19:47

就是苹果 Like Apple.

19:48

你看苹果的在中国那个时候 Look at Apple in China back then.

19:50

我们在中国百分之 In China, what percent...

19:52

我们那时候在中国已经做到了250亿美元 we had already reached $25 billion in China,

19:57

95%全部都是中国渠道，对吧 and 95% of it was through Chinese distributors, right?

20:00

所以我就觉得 So I felt...

20:00

然后但是渠道你知道我们当时销售才多少人吗 And do you know how many salespeople we had for distribution?

20:04

不到，整个渠道 For the entire distribution business,

20:06

不到500人 fewer than 500 people.

20:07

苹果零售，做 Apple Retail,

20:09

那么做 doing,

20:10

做很少的销售 doing very little of the sales,

20:13

好几千人 had several thousand people.

20:15

因为零售就是需要很多人嘛，对 Because retail needs a lot of people. Right.

20:17

所以我 So I,

20:17

我个人就是觉得说 personally I felt,

20:19

你为什么要去做这个 why would you do that?

20:21

当然了 Of course,

20:22

我也理解苹果为什么去做 I also understand why Apple did it.

20:24

因为他要保证他的品牌啊 It wants to protect its brand

20:26

他的体验啊 and its experience.

20:27

然后确实有一定好 And that does have real benefits,

20:29

因为你能掌控这个品牌体验 because you can control the brand experience.

20:32

但是我个人是觉得说挺累的 But personally, I find it exhausting.

20:36

然后可能我更想 Maybe I'd rather,

20:38

因为我也是做效率 because I'm all about efficiency,

20:40

我也是个工业工程师 I'm an industrial engineer.

20:41

从某一个角度 In a way,

20:42

我更想说 I'd rather think about

20:43

咱们怎么更高效 how we can be more efficient,

20:44

用尽量少的资源 use as few resources as possible

20:46

去做到最大的效果 to get the biggest result.

20:48

所以在这上面 So on this,

20:49

我们两个在这个 the two of us,

20:50

包括后来 including later on,

20:51

我觉得分歧还是比较大 had a pretty big disagreement.

20:52

他那天没有那么 That day he wasn't that,

20:55

那么激烈的去说 that forceful about it.

20:56

他可能 Maybe he

20:57

想说慢慢你会改变想法 thought you'd gradually change your mind.

20:59

结果你们两个最后都没改变想法 In the end, neither of you changed your mind.

21:03

所以我们就讨论了一些这些方面的事情，所以就 So we discussed these kinds of things.

21:08

我想应该是聊得够有意思吧 I guess it was interesting enough,

21:09

然后我们最后就，你知道 and we ended up, you know,

21:10

聊了所有这些 talking about all of that.

21:11

然后在我的那个最后的那个 And at the very end of my

21:15

1500字的这个文章 1,500-word essay,

21:17

最后其实我跟他说了一句话 I actually wrote him one line.

21:19

然后包括我后来跟他谈 And later when I talked with him,

21:21

我说最重要的就是 I said the most important thing is

21:22

你需要能适应 you need to be adaptable.

21:24

就是我说这个Darwin（达尔文） I brought up Darwin.

21:28

我们说适者生存 We say survival of the fittest.

21:30

适者不是强者 The fittest isn't the strongest,

21:31

不是优者 not the best,

21:32

不是最聪明的 not the smartest.

21:34

适者的定义在Darwin的这个 Darwin's definition of the fittest

21:36

就是最能适应变化的 is the most adaptable to change,

21:39

就是最能适应环境的 the one that best adapts to its environment

21:41

也能够根据环境去改变 and can change with it.

21:43

所以我当时给他希望能达到的就是 So what I hoped to get across to him was

21:46

你要根据中国的环境 that you have to go by China's environment

21:48

去适应中国的环境 and adapt to it.

21:49

你不能老是坚持你自己的东西 You can't always insist on your own way.

21:52

但是最后可能我们两个在这上面是没有达成共识 But in the end, we didn't reach agreement on that.

21:55

就是那种be water（像水一样） It's that "be water" idea.

21:57

你是想要be water You want to be water.

21:58

都是像道家 It's like Taoism.

22:00

道家讲的时候 Taoism says

22:00

你要去学会怎么去适应这个环境 you have to learn how to adapt to your environment,

22:05

然后你还是可以找到路走过去 and then you can still navigate and get through.

22:08

坚持下去 Being persistent,

22:10

但是要能适应，对吧 but being adaptable, right?

22:13

然后包括我那种 And so,

22:14

所以我当时其实已经就是埋下一个 so back then I had already planted a seed:

22:16

就是你要考虑有些东西 you should consider whether there are things

22:19

是不是你能够去改变 you could change

22:21

在中国能够做得更好 to do better in China.

22:25

但是所以有的时候我也不知道我是对的还是错的 But sometimes I don't know whether I was right or wrong,

22:29

因为他在中国现在做很好 because he's doing really well in China now,

22:31

对吧 中国有一百多家店 right? Over a hundred stores in China.

22:32

包括那天我跟那个 The other day I was with...

22:34

因为中国的他的总经理是我原来在 because his GM in China was someone I, back at,

22:36

是我从苹果带过去的吧 someone I brought over from Apple.

22:39

那个 The,

22:40

所以就是 so that's,

22:41

所以就是Allen Wang 嘛 that's Allen Wang.

22:43

然后我跟那个Allen那天还聊，就是 I was chatting with Allen the other day.

22:47

但是他们很累 But they're exhausted,

22:48

确实很累 really exhausted.

22:49

Allen...因为都是自己的店 Allen... because the stores are all their own,

22:50

所以他到处要跑啊，就是 he has to run around everywhere.

22:54

工作量完全不一样 The workload is completely different.

22:57

所以我个人也是觉得说 So personally, I feel

22:59

他要的那种工作量和工作力度 the workload and intensity he demands

23:01

我也是做不来的 is something I couldn't do.

23:02

因为我 Because I,

23:03

我会觉得 I feel

23:06

可能我这个人还是比较 maybe I'm more,

23:09

不是说我不够细 it's not that I'm not detail-oriented enough,

23:10

但是我是希望说能够通过其他的方式能够 but I hope to get there in other ways.

23:14

就还是有一点这种 There's still a bit of that,

23:16

因为做OR运筹学的 from doing OR, operations research:

23:18

就是他们怎么能更高效，对吧 how can we be more efficient, right?

23:20

少用点人力 Use less manpower,

23:22

怎么怎么样 and so on.

23:23

Elon就感觉很硬碰硬的那种感觉。对，对，所以，但是 Elon feels very head-on, brute force. Right, right. So, but,

23:27

所以他那个团队实际上后来我也知道 so I know that his team, later on,

23:30

就团队一直都很辛苦 has always worked really hard.

23:31

我跟那个团队有时候沟通 When I talk with that team sometimes,

23:34

包括到现在都还是很辛苦 even now, they're still stretched.

23:36

就他们就觉得就没有停 They feel like it never stops.

23:39

就是Elon永远是要150% Elon always wants 150%.

23:41

然后这种强度的话 And with that intensity,

23:43

其实能跟Elon工作 to work with Elon,

23:46

我觉得就是他要求很大的强度 he demands a huge amount of intensity,

23:47

而且是你没有时间去休息的那种，所以 the kind where you have no time to rest,

23:52

而且是坚持很长时间，所以这 and you keep it up for a very long time. So

23:53

这种强度 that kind of intensity

23:55

可能我也不是我这个人愿意做的 isn't something I'm willing to do.

23:58

不是说我不愿意做更好 Not that I don't want to do better,

24:00

但是可能 but maybe

24:02

我总是希望说 I always hope...

24:03

没有平衡的感觉 There's no sense of balance.

24:04

它是没有平衡的 It has no balance.

24:05

我觉得我是还是需要有一点平衡 I think I still need some balance.

24:08

而且我总是想说 And I always think about

24:10

咱们怎么能做到同样的效果，不要 how we can get the same result without

24:14

这么累的去做到同样的效果，对吧？对 wearing ourselves out to get it, right? Right.

24:17

这个就非常道家 That's very Taoist.

24:18

就是你要怎么样 It's about how you,

24:19

你叫什么，无为嘛 what's it called, wu wei.

24:20

就是你要怎么样 It's about how you

24:22

有种顺势而为的 go with the flow.

24:23

就不要去真的是去争啊，去抢 Not really fighting and grabbing,

24:26

然后抢到了的东西 and then for what you grabbed,

24:27

然后你还要更争更抢 fighting and grabbing even harder

24:29

去把这个守住，对 to hold onto it. Right.

24:30

你消耗太大，对 It costs you too much. Right.

24:32

消耗 The cost.

24:33

就你杀了一万，自伤 It's like killing ten thousand

24:35

自伤八千 while losing eight thousand of your own.

24:36

那你就没意思了 Then what's the point?

24:38

这可能是真的有点文化上的一个区别 That's probably really a cultural difference.

24:41

但是现在还是这样，可是大家 But it's still like that now, and everyone,

24:43

不是也就是 well,

24:44

所以说我说其实可能 so I'd say actually,

24:46

倒是我觉得跟他在 I think with him,

24:47

在这上面 on this,

24:48

我现在也懂得就 I understand now that

24:50

这世界上永远不是说只有一条道，对吧，所以他 there's never only one path in this world, right? So he,

24:53

他有他的道 he has his way.

24:55

然后他的道 And his way,

24:56

他也做成功 he made it work too,

24:57

所以他坚持了他的自己的道 so he stuck to his own way.

25:00

当时你在做VC（风投）的时候 Back when you were doing VC

25:01

在那个Silicon Valley in Silicon Valley,

25:03

就这个事情 there's this thing

25:04

我觉得很多人其实不知道的 I think a lot of people don't know.

25:05

我听到我也是很惊讶 I was surprised when I heard it,

25:07

就是竟然 that actually

25:08

你当时跟Naval走得那么近 you were that close to Naval.

25:10

就是Naval的 Naval,

25:11

然后Naval跟Elon and Naval and Elon

25:14

就完全是感觉两种人类的那种，是吧？ feel like two completely different kinds of people, right?

25:17

一个特别佛系 One is really laid-back,

25:18

一个就是特别的那种硬碰硬的，就是这种 and the other is really head-on, that kind.

25:21

那Naval那种又是什么样的感觉，就是你 So what was Naval like? Because you,

25:23

因为你马上在这边跟他工作完了以后 right after working with Elon here,

25:26

就去Silicon Valley跟Naval工作了 went to Silicon Valley to work with Naval.

25:28

就是一个天差地别的感觉了，对 It must have felt like night and day. Right.

25:31

Naval是一个很聪明的人 Naval is a very smart person.

25:33

Naval是一个很会变化的人，对 Naval is very adaptable. Right.

25:35

我觉得这是 I think this is,

25:36

就当时我们跟Naval back then with Naval, we...

25:38

但是Naval其实也是一个很会谈判的人 But Naval is also a very good negotiator,

25:41

我必须要说，对 I have to say. Right.

25:42

他很佛系的那种感觉 He has that very laid-back feel,

25:44

就很软的那种 very soft.

25:46

他就是很像水的那种感觉，对 He's very much like water. Right.

25:48

但是他很聪明 But he's very smart,

25:49

其实做生意他也很聪明，所以他 and very smart at business too. So he,

25:51

当时我记得 I remember back then,

25:53

因为当时实际上 because at the time, actually,

25:55

我觉得 I think,

25:57

也是正好 it just so happened,

25:58

我觉得时间点 I think the timing...

26:00

我也很幸运 I was very lucky.

26:02

当时的这个时间点特别好，因为 The timing back then was especially good, because

26:04

说实在从AngelList当时在发展的这个过程中 honestly, AngelList was still developing at that point.

26:07

在那个时候啊 Back then,

26:10

Naval的这个AngelList这个平台 Naval's AngelList platform,

26:12

在Silicon Valley in Silicon Valley,

26:15

这些就是所谓的这个传统的 compared with the so-called traditional ones,

26:19

像Sequoia啊 like Sequoia,

26:21

或者是红杉啊 or HongShan,

26:22

或者是Andreessen啊 or Andreessen,

26:23

这些比较出名 the well-known ones,

26:24

Benchmark啊 Benchmark,

26:25

这些都是很出名的这些基金来讲 all very famous funds,

26:28

他们就觉得就是小打小闹 to them it was just small-time.

26:30

那时候AngelList是很小吧 AngelList was really small back then, right?

26:32

很小很小，然后，而且呢 Very, very small. And

26:33

AngelList最早挺 AngelList in the very beginning,

26:35

我记得跟Naval聊 I remember chatting with Naval,

26:36

他就说 and he said,

26:37

我们就聊到他怎么来的嘛，他说 we talked about how it came about. He said

26:39

就真的这个名字怎么来的 this is really how the name came about.

26:41

就真的他就说最早就是一个list，然后 He said at first it really was just a list.

26:44

因为Naval在Silicon Valley也待了很久了 Naval had been in Silicon Valley a long time.

26:46

他身边确实有一帮 Around him there really was a group,

26:48

像Elad，像Jason people like Elad, like Jason.

26:51

这些人现在都是很出名，那些人 These people are all very famous now.

26:53

那个时候不是很出名 Back then they weren't that famous.

26:54

但是在Silicon Valley But in Silicon Valley,

26:56

你要是在Silicon Valley待久了 if you'd been in Silicon Valley long enough,

26:57

你知道那些人还是挺厉害的 you knew they were formidable.

26:59

在Silicon Valley In Silicon Valley

27:00

就是连续创业者啊，那个时候 they were serial entrepreneurs back then.

27:03

所以Naval身边 So around Naval,

27:04

因为他自己也是嘛 since he was one himself,

27:05

所以他身边确实有一帮 there really was a group

27:07

非常高质量的这种运营人 of very high-quality operators.

27:10

然后这些人呢 And these people,

27:11

那个时候呢 at that time,

27:12

就有点小的积累 had built up a little wealth.

27:14

小的积累以后 After that,

27:15

他们就会 they would,

27:16

两种方式，一个就是 in two ways. One,

27:18

他们就会有这些创业公司 these startups

27:20

会找他们去做顾问 would ask them to be advisors.

27:22

另外就是 Two,

27:23

像这些顶级的这些机构 top firms

27:26

Sequoia也好啊 like Sequoia

27:27

Andreessen也好 or Andreessen,

27:28

他们有投的公司的时候 when they invested in companies,

27:31

他们也是希望这些人来帮他们的公司 also wanted these people to help their companies.

27:33

所以他会邀请这些人，或者是，甚至 So they'd invite these people in, or even

27:38

做顾问，对，而且呢 as advisors. Right. And

27:39

当时Sequoia Sequoia, back then,

27:41

也当时是很巧 by coincidence,

27:43

就是Sequoia在 Sequoia, in,

27:44

我忘了是13年，还是14年 I forget if it was 2013 or 2014,

27:46

这个我得去查，再查 I'd have to check,

27:48

Sequoia刚刚推出了一个新的项目 Sequoia had just launched a new program

27:50

叫做Scout Program called the Scout Program.

27:51

因为他也发现了 Because they had noticed

27:53

就是这些运营派的天使投资人 that these operator angels

27:55

实际上经常 actually often,

27:56

你看包括Google很多时候 look at Google and many others,

27:58

其实他们的第一轮，都是那种好多Silicon Valley出来的成功创业者投的 their first rounds were funded by lots of successful Silicon Valley entrepreneurs.

28:06

所以呢，他们就觉得说，这些人是真正能接触到一些很有意思的项目 So they felt these people had access to really interesting deals,

28:12

然后他为了能够获得这样的项目的情报 and to get intel on those deals,

28:17

所以呢，他当时这个Scout Program刚刚开始，后来变得很大了 they started the Scout Program, which later grew huge.

28:22

就是他给到这些比较好的 They gave it to the good ones,

28:26

就他认为比较好的 the ones they rated highly,

28:27

这种所谓的 the so-called

28:28

运营派的天使投资人 operator angels,

28:29

像Elad这种人 people like Elad,

28:30

他给他们钱 they gave them money

28:32

让他们去投 to invest.

28:33

因为这些人那个时候 Because back then these people

28:35

也没有自己的那么多的流动资金 didn't have that much liquidity of their own

28:37

去投这些公司 to invest in these companies.

28:39

所以他就给他们 So they gave them,

28:40

好像我忘了是多少钱 I forget how much,

28:42

100万啊，随便吧 a million, whatever.

28:42

他们可以投5万啊，10万啊 They could invest fifty or a hundred thousand

28:45

到这些公司 into these companies.

28:47

也是刚刚开始 It had only just started,

28:49

没开始多久 not long before.

28:50

所以这些人呢 So these people

28:51

他现在不仅是他能看到 now not only could see the deals,

28:53

而且他其实是有机会投进去的 they actually had the chance to invest.

28:56

而且他也有 And they had,

28:57

也不是他自己的钱 it wasn't their own money,

28:58

是用Sequoia的钱 it was Sequoia's money.

29:01

但他用Sequoia的钱呢 But with Sequoia's money,

29:02

实际上这些公司呢 these companies

29:03

可以在那个这么早的时候 could, at such an early stage,

29:05

可以拿更多的钱 take more money.

29:08

他自己没有钱 They had no money themselves,

29:09

所以就出现了这么一个缺口 so there was this gap.

29:12

就是说这些人他有项目资源流 These people had deal flow,

29:15

而且他的有些项目资源流是很好的 and some of their deal flow was very good.

29:17

然后他这些人也是很聪明的 And these people were smart,

29:19

所以他能够找到 so they could find,

29:21

找出很好的项目资源流来 find great deals.

29:23

他想投的时候 When they wanted to invest,

29:25

但是他自己没有钱，所以呢 they didn't have the money themselves. So

29:27

实际上最早的时候 in the very beginning,

29:30

Naval Naval,

29:31

因为他自己也是创业者 being an entrepreneur himself,

29:32

他也理解这个问题 understood the problem.

29:34

所以他就想帮那些创业者 So he wanted to help those entrepreneurs.

29:36

所以他实际上最早就是一个名单 So at first it really was just a list.

29:38

他说他最早就是一个邮件名单 He said it was just an email list at first.

29:40

他会发邮件 He'd send emails,

29:41

因为他们认识一些有钱人啊 because they knew some wealthy people,

29:42

或者是VC啊，或者随便什么 or VCs, or whatever.

29:45

他就会发一个列表出来 He'd send out a list

29:47

说我们有这些项目 saying, we have these deals,

29:49

你们愿不愿 would you,

29:49

谁愿意投这些公司 who wants to invest in these companies?

29:52

就真的是一个最简单的列表 It really was the simplest list,

29:55

就是一个邮件列表 just an email list.

29:56

就真的是一个字面意思 It was quite literally

29:57

AngelList AngelList.

29:59

然后 And then,

30:00

但是呢 but

30:01

从后来呢 later on,

30:02

他就觉得说 he felt that

30:03

这个邮件名单开始越来越多嘛 the list was getting longer,

30:04

人也越来越多 with more and more people.

30:05

他就想要搭一个平台来做这个，当然也 So he wanted to build a platform for it. Of course,

30:08

当时因为有JOBS Act at the time there was the JOBS Act.

30:10

好像个意外一样 It was almost like a lucky accident.

30:11

然后JOBS Act也正好出来 The JOBS Act had just come out.

30:13

我觉得时机也是非常好，就是说 I think the timing was very good, because

30:15

突然之间 all of a sudden,

30:16

以前是只有合格投资人 before, only accredited investors

30:19

才可以投风投 could invest in venture.

30:20

现在是任何人都可以投风投 Now anybody can invest in venture.

30:23

所以他就看 So he saw,

30:24

也看到了这个颠覆 he saw this disruption

30:26

在监管环境上的 in the regulatory environment.

30:28

他觉得这个，突然之间 He felt that all of a sudden,

30:29

我们可以 we could...

30:31

因为私募投资 Because private investment

30:32

占所有的资产管理 makes up, of all asset management,

30:35

可能不到就是10% maybe less than 10%.

30:37

然后风投占到这个私募投资 And venture makes up, of private investment,

30:41

不到5% less than 5%.

30:42

所以就是风投是一个很小的类别 So venture is a very small asset class.

30:44

然后他看到说 And he saw that

30:46

如果这个什么人都可以进来的话 if anyone could come in,

30:49

是不是我们就可以把风投做得更大 maybe we could make venture much bigger.

30:51

所以他是看到了这个机会 He saw that opportunity,

30:53

所以他就觉得说 so he felt

30:54

我们要用这个平台来做 we should use this platform to do it.

30:57

但是实际上当时 But at the time,

30:58

他自己也碰到一个问题 he ran into a problem himself.

31:02

就是虽然有这个散户投资人 There were retail investors, sure,

31:05

但散户投资人能放2000块钱 but a retail investor could only put in two thousand,

31:07

5000块钱 or five thousand.

31:08

放的钱都很少 The amounts were all small.

31:11

对 放不了多少钱 Right. They couldn't put in much.

31:13

而且几百块钱呢 And a few hundred dollars

31:15

基本上就不适合 basically doesn't work.

31:16

而且你那么早的一个风投的项目 And with such an early venture deal,

31:19

大家看不出来他好还是坏 people can't tell whether it's good or bad.

31:22

反正就是一个赌的心态，对，然后对 It's just a gambling mindset. Right.

31:25

然后而且呢就是说 And on top of that,

31:26

像他的这些好的融资方 take his good syndicate leads.

31:30

你要想融一个 If you want to raise,

31:32

好比说五万块钱哪怕 say, fifty thousand dollars,

31:34

不是很大 which isn't much,

31:36

他要跟 they'd have to talk to,

31:38

如果这个人只投1000到2000块钱的话 if each person only invests one or two thousand,

31:41

他要跟多少人谈 how many people would they have to talk to?

31:42

因为他可能跟上百个人谈 They might talk to hundreds of people,

31:44

然后这里面可能有10%的人投 and maybe 10% of them invest.

31:47

所以是一个很累的 So it's an exhausting,

31:49

很辛苦的过程，对 grueling process. Right.

31:51

很消耗的过程 A draining process.

31:52

这些人哪有那么多时间去做这个事情 These people don't have that much time for it.

31:54

而且这个一两千块钱的这个投资人 And investors putting in one or two thousand

31:57

他普遍其实是不懂这些东西的 generally don't understand this stuff.

31:59

对 你的这个沟通成本是 Right. Your communication cost,

32:01

就沟通的这个部分的成本 the cost of the communication part,

32:03

非常高 is very high.

32:04

这个我们自己有经验，对 We've experienced that ourselves. Right.

32:06

没办法想的 It's unimaginable.

32:07

所以他就觉得说 So he felt

32:08

他那个时候实际上碰到了这么一个瓶颈 he had hit this bottleneck at the time.

32:10

就是他的平台上来的这些人 The people coming onto his platform,

32:13

他现在吸引的这些 the ones he was attracting,

32:14

就是所谓的JOBS Act the ones the so-called JOBS Act

32:15

能够打开的 opened the door to,

32:16

实际上都不是 actually weren't,

32:18

就是 well,

32:19

他这个摩擦很大，对 there was a lot of friction. Right.

32:21

就是他可能带来 They might bring in...

32:22

你也不知道他那个时候质量是有多好 you didn't know what their quality was back then,

32:26

那边的那个人也不懂怎么去判断 and those people didn't know how to judge,

32:28

这些质量也不懂怎么去判断这些 didn't know how to judge the quality of these deals.

32:30

那有一些 There were some,

32:31

当然他有这些人都有自己的一些什么家族办公室 of course, who had their own family offices.

32:35

但是那个时候还很少 But that was rare back then.

32:37

大部分家族办公室那个时候都不投风投，所以呢 Most family offices didn't invest in venture then. So

32:40

就是他这个想 what he was thinking,

32:42

他就希望说，哎呀 he was hoping, oh,

32:44

我其实这些人就需要个十万块钱 these people really just need a hundred thousand dollars.

32:46

就不是很大的支票金额 It's not a big check size.

32:48

就可以了 That would do it.

32:49

去让，对他们 to let them, well, for them,

32:49

但是他们要自己融五万块钱都很难，所以呢 but raising even fifty thousand on their own was hard. So

32:54

他当时呢 at the time,

32:55

就特别希望说有一个机构基金 he really wanted an institutional fund

32:58

能够开 that could write

32:59

就是十万块钱的支票，就够了 a $100,000 check. That would be enough.

33:03

因为十万到二十万对他来讲很重要 Because a hundred to two hundred thousand mattered a lot to him,

33:06

对这些人来讲很重要 and a lot to these people.

33:08

而且如果我开十万 And if I write a hundred thousand,

33:09

他就跟一个人谈 they only talk to one person.

33:10

他不需要那么一大堆的人 They don't need a whole crowd.

33:12

他就是对他的那个平台上的这些融资方 For the syndicate leads on his platform,

33:16

省了很多时间 that saves a lot of time.

33:17

然后 And,

33:19

但是呢，你想 but think about it:

33:20

如果你是个机构投资人 if you're an institutional investor,

33:22

你已经投在这个Andreessen、Sequoia already invested in Andreessen and Sequoia,

33:26

而且你需要投出几亿美元 and you need to deploy hundreds of millions,

33:29

或者至少五千万美元的支票 or at least write $50 million checks,

33:31

你不可能去开十万 you can't write a hundred thousand.

33:34

就对他来讲这个没有一点吸引力，对吧，而且 It holds no appeal for them at all, right? And

33:38

十万对我来讲都根本不.... a hundred thousand means nothing to me.

33:40

我为什么要找人去做这件事，所以呢 Why would I hire someone to do that? So

33:43

当时实际上对他来讲 at the time, for him,

33:44

他其实是一个挺困难的时候，我其实 it was actually a pretty difficult time. I,

33:47

我当时没有完全理解他，后来 I didn't fully understand him back then. Later,

33:50

当然我后来看到了这个平台 of course, I later saw

33:51

在这个平台运营 how the platform operated,

33:52

我后来发现说，哦 and I realized, oh,

33:53

他其实是这么一个机会 it was actually an opportunity.

33:55

但是我们当时看到的确实是，就是说 But what we saw at the time was this:

33:57

他这个平台上有很 his platform had very...

34:00

因为Naval自己的个人魅力 Because of Naval's personal charisma

34:02

包括他在Silicon Valley的这种影响力 and his influence in Silicon Valley,

34:05

他平台上的这些运营派天使投资人 the operator angels on his platform,

34:08

有一部分的天使投资人 some of those angels,

34:10

真的是很有顶级能力的 were truly top quality,

34:11

像Elad Gil like Elad Gil,

34:12

像这种人 people like that,

34:13

Seedcamp那些 Seedcamp and so on.

34:14

都是非常顶级能人 They were all very top-quality people.

34:17

所以他们确实有很，有 So they really did have...

34:19

像Pear啊 firms like Pear.

34:20

那个时候还很小 It was still very small then.

34:21

Pear只有一个第一期基金 4000万 Pear had only Fund One, $40 million.

34:23

他们就是没有资金 They just didn't have capital.

34:26

他就是需要资金 They needed capital,

34:27

但是那个时候呢 but at that time,

34:29

机构资金 institutional capital

34:30

又不愿意承担这个风险 wasn't willing to take that risk.

34:31

所以对我来讲，就是我说 So for me, I'd say,

34:33

我也是真的是觉得很幸运 I felt really lucky.

34:35

就是正好就有这么一个缺口 There happened to be this gap,

34:38

然后这个缺口呢 and right at that gap,

34:39

正好我有这个中科招商的钱要进 I had CSC Group's money looking to get in.

34:43

他想进Silicon Valley They wanted to get into Silicon Valley.

34:45

然后所以呢 And so,

34:45

当时呢 at that time,

34:46

他又没有说像SoftBank（软银）那样的钱，对吧 and they didn't have money like SoftBank's, right?

34:49

SoftBank那样的钱 With SoftBank's kind of money,

34:50

他说我可以晚一点进来 they can say, I'll come in later

34:52

然后我付两三倍的这个估值，没关系 and pay two or three times the valuation, no problem,

34:55

因为我有几十亿去烧 because I have billions to burn,

34:58

或者上百亿的去烧 even tens of billions.

35:00

我们只有两个亿 We only had $200 million.

35:02

那所以呢 So,

35:03

当时我们跟AngelList这个合作 our partnership with AngelList

35:05

就变成我来做他的这个 became this: I'd be

35:08

做他这个第一个机构基金 their first institutional fund

35:11

在他这个平台上面 on their platform.

35:13

然后后来其实我们发现了有好几个好处，第一呢 Later we found several benefits. First,

35:16

他这个平台 their platform...

35:16

因为他的平台 on their platform,

35:17

另外Naval做的一件事是非常好的 Also, Naval did one thing really well.

35:20

他通过技术平台 Through the tech platform,

35:21

就是现在做的 the way it works now,

35:22

他把所有的交割 he took all the closing

35:24

这个法律流程 and the legal process,

35:26

非常的高效 made it very efficient,

35:27

他都标准化了 and standardized all of it.

35:28

所以变成他标准化以后呢 And once it was standardized,

35:30

那你的估值啊 your valuations,

35:32

你的这个每一个的估值 the valuation of every single deal,

35:34

都可以追踪 could be tracked,

35:35

然后我就不需要人了，对 so I didn't need people. Right.

35:36

所以对我们来讲 So for us,

35:38

一个是我项目资源流没有，不需要人，对 one, deal flow: I didn't need people for it,

35:41

因为从他的平台上可以拿 because I could get it from their platform.

35:43

第二个就是 Second,

35:44

我交割所有的这些法务啊 the closing, all the legal work,

35:46

什么这些，对 all of that, right,

35:47

你不用再去找人去找这个事情 you don't have to find people to handle it.

35:49

我也不需要搞这个事情了 I didn't have to deal with it anymore.

35:51

然后我唯一就是需要一个兼职的人 The only thing I needed was a part-time person

35:53

去帮我把这个整个基金估值做一下 to do the valuation for the whole fund.

35:55

但是每一个SPV本身的估值啊什么的 But the valuation of each SPV and so on,

36:00

AngelList都帮你做，对吧 AngelList does that for you, right?

36:02

所以实际上它是一个非常高效 So it was actually very efficient.

36:04

所以当时我们就用了 So back then we used

36:06

我们只有一个AngelList，就把这个 only AngelList, and through it

36:08

我们投了300多公司，对吧，然后而且呢 and we invested in more than 300 companies, right? And also,

36:11

而且你这个很准 And you were very accurate,

36:13

最后从结果的角度上来看 judging by the results in the end.

36:15

对 因为我觉得它准的原因有好几个 Right. I think there were several reasons it was accurate.

36:18

第一个就是我们 The first is that we,

36:19

就我当时 back then I had,

36:20

36个还是30多少个独角兽企业，对，30几个 36, or thirty-something unicorns? Right, thirty-something.

36:24

这个斯坦福商学院算出来是32个 Stanford Business School counted 32,

36:28

但是我其实算出来应该还会更多 but by my count it should be even more.

36:31

但是不管怎么说啊 But anyway,

36:31

30多个吧，30多个 thirty-something, thirty-something.

36:35

我个人认为说 Personally, I think

36:36

就当时实际上有几个原因 there were actually a few reasons

36:39

就是我们为什么能抓住这么多 why we were able to capture so many.

36:41

一个呢 One is

36:42

就是说他本身的这个平台上的这些operator that the operators on his platform

36:45

就是很厉害的人 were really impressive people.

36:47

你想都是 Think about who they were:

36:49

像Elad people like Elad,

36:50

像Jason Calacanis的这些人 like Jason Calacanis.

36:51

他们自己本身 They themselves,

36:52

你想他们自己都投了多少个独角兽了，所以 think how many unicorns they'd already backed. So

36:56

等于是 in effect,

36:56

然后我们等于是有一把 we had a handful,

36:59

二三十个这样的人 twenty or thirty people like that,

37:01

每个人投 and each of them

37:02

能投两三个独角兽，我就 could back two or three unicorns. I'd

37:04

我在他里面占一个 take a piece of each,

37:06

我就变出，变出来多少，这个就很高效 and look how many I'd end up with. That's very efficient.

37:08

就是你的这个思维方式 That's your way of thinking:

37:09

我就杠杆已经现有的资源，对 leverage the resources that already exist. Right.

37:12

所以当时我觉得 So back then I felt

37:13

就我们正好就是 we had exactly,

37:15

我就说 I'd say

37:16

我就找到了这么一个hack I'd found this hack.

37:18

而且当时正好 And at that time,

37:20

他确实也有一个need he really did have a need.

37:22

他需要money He needed money,

37:23

他需要liquidity he needed liquidity,

37:25

这样能把他的这个friction减掉 which would reduce his friction

37:28

而且prove他这个platform，对 and prove his platform. Right.

37:29

所以当时我们当时做的这个deal So the deal we did back then was:

37:31

就我们投 we invest,

37:32

就你必须让我能占你的股份 but you have to let me take equity in you.

37:35

同时我 At the same time, I...

37:36

然后我就同意建这个，这个 then I agreed to set this up,

37:39

占AngelList的股份，对，我们买了，我们变成 in exchange for a stake in AngelList. Right, we bought in and became

37:42

当时我们买了 we bought in then

37:45

变成AngelList最大的一个 and became AngelList's largest

37:49

outside investor，就是hold outside investor, holding,

37:51

我们当时是 we were

37:52

等于是hold basically holding,

37:53

probably the largest outside investor probably the largest outside investor

37:55

in AngelList in AngelList.

37:57

嗯 Mm-hm.

37:57

其他的都是common啊 Everyone else held common,

37:59

就是还有一些 and there were some others,

38:00

也就是当时包括 including, at the time,

38:02

之前投过他的 his earlier investors,

38:03

像Andreessen什么，都 like Andreessen and others.

38:05

当时hold你的share Their stakes back then

38:06

应该都没有很多，然后你们 probably weren't very big. Then you...

38:08

比如说你们投了这个AngelList以后，上面 For example, after you invested in AngelList,

38:11

你们选的这些公司 the companies you picked on it,

38:12

是谁的advice whose advice did you follow?

38:13

你也需要advice吗 Did you need advice too?

38:14

还是说，没有 Or... No.

38:15

所以我们就没有advice啊 So we had no advice.

38:16

就是我们就去选了 We just picked.

38:18

选了以后 And after picking,

38:19

实际上就是 actually,

38:19

这个就是一个非常light touch的model，因为 it was a very light-touch model, because

38:22

因为这些公司的lead都是Sequoia啊 these companies' leads were Sequoia,

38:26

或者是Andreessen啊 or Andreessen,

38:27

或者是Lightspeed啊，whatever，right or Lightspeed, whatever, right?

38:29

所以就是 So

38:30

有人在上面 someone was already on top of it.

38:32

我不需要去管啊 I didn't need to manage anything.

38:33

就是已经很好 It was already good.

38:34

那你就完全是一个资方，对 So you were purely a capital provider. Right.

38:36

我们就是来做这个资方 We were there as the capital provider.

38:39

就是 Just

38:39

就是挑 picking,

38:40

前端的挑 picking on the front end,

38:41

后面没有太多的管理 without much management afterward.

38:44

所以就非常的efficient，但是 So it was very efficient. But...

38:46

这就非常strategic partner了，就 So you were very much a strategic partner.

38:47

对我们来讲 For us,

38:48

就是当时我们需要的 what we needed back then

38:50

就是要hack into was to hack into

38:51

Silicon Valley的top deal flow，然后而且呢 Silicon Valley's top deal flow. And also,

38:53

好处就是说，后来 the upside was that later on,

38:55

因为好多这些 because many of these

38:56

他们都是有pro rata rights的 had pro rata rights,

38:58

甚至有些 and some of

38:59

这些operator angel these operator angels

39:01

实际上他本身是advisor to this company were actually advisors to the company themselves.

39:04

所以他之后在公司做后面 So later, when the company did

39:07

growth的这些轮的时候 its growth rounds,

39:09

他们还有access they still had access.

39:11

所以为什么后来我们进到 That's why we later got into

39:12

包括Stripe deals including Stripe,

39:14

50个亿估值的时候 at a $5 billion valuation.

39:15

我们进去了 We got in

39:16

就是因为我们有这个 because we had this

39:17

跟Elad的这个relationship relationship with Elad.

39:19

就是那个支付 That's the payments one,

39:21

支付估值的那个 the payments company with that valuation?

39:22

那他那个时候才50个亿估值 Back then it was valued at only $5 billion,

39:24

现在是上千个亿了 and now it's over $100 billion.

39:26

1500亿 $150 billion.

39:28

所以 So,

39:28

所以实际上 so actually,

39:29

实际上 actually,

39:31

就是我们发现说 we found that

39:33

这些operator angel these operator angels

39:35

不仅是他有 didn't just have

39:36

有这个早期的一些好的项目 good early-stage projects.

39:39

他其实因为他在Silicon Valley Because they'd been in Silicon Valley

39:41

已经干了很久了 for so long,

39:41

他有一些成熟的项目 they also had some mature projects.

39:43

那成熟的项目 And with mature projects,

39:44

我们就可以多放钱了 we could put in more money,

39:45

放500万、1000万 $5 million, $10 million.

39:47

那包括像比如说 For example,

39:48

当时我们Guardant Health with Guardant Health,

39:50

4个亿估值的时候 when it was valued at $400 million,

39:51

我们投进去的500万 we put in $5 million,

39:53

后来又投了500万 and later another $5 million.

39:55

结果他上市的时候 When it went public,

39:58

是35个亿 it was worth $3.5 billion.

40:01

然后这个就三年半就变 So in three and a half years,

40:03

就7倍基本上 that's basically seven times.

40:05

然后现在 And now,

40:07

现在已经是150个亿了，对吧 it's already at $15 billion, right?

40:09

所以实际上 So actually,

40:10

我们就有好多这种机会 we had a lot of opportunities like that.

40:12

那个机会出来的时候 When those opportunities came up,

40:13

我们就可以多放钱，对吧 we could put in more money, right?

40:15

就放大一点的钱，虽然我 Bigger money. Although I...

40:18

但是我们的 but for us,

40:19

就是是有成本的 there was a cost:

40:20

就是我们要付carry嘛 we had to pay carry.

40:21

但是对我来讲，就是说 But for me,

40:23

挣钱的话 if you're making money,

40:24

你就不要担心 don't worry

40:25

你要付多少钱，对吧，你要 about how much you pay, right?

40:27

整体挣了就好了 As long as you make money overall, that's fine.

40:29

你怎么着都是 Either way,

40:29

像这个 look at,

40:31

这个 look at

40:33

SoftBank SoftBank.

40:33

它要付两三倍的估值，对吧 It pays two or three times the valuation, right?

40:35

你总是要付一个premium You always have to pay a premium

40:37

to get into Silicon Valley's to get into Silicon Valley's

40:39

best deal flow，对吧 best deal flow, right?

40:42

但是 But

40:43

quality quality,

40:43

you have to pay for it you have to pay for it.

40:44

you have to pay a premium for it，right You have to pay a premium for it, right?

40:46

所以对我们来讲 So for us,

40:47

20%的premium a 20% premium

40:48

比两到三倍要好，对吧，所以 is better than two to three times, right? So

40:51

所以对我来讲，就是 for me,

40:53

it's still worth it，所以 it's still worth it.

40:56

这个是我们当时的想法，所以也是，就是 That was our thinking back then.

41:00

要不然的话，我估计 Otherwise, I suspect...

41:02

而且 And,

41:02

而且我觉得挺有意思，就是 and I think it's interesting,

41:03

确实我们也是很lucky，那个时候 we really were lucky back then.

41:06

我们自己 We ourselves

41:07

做了一个model built a model,

41:09

然后我们觉得 and we figured

41:10

我们应该 we should

41:11

能capture be able to capture

41:12

10到15个unicorn，然后 ten to fifteen unicorns.

41:15

当时我记得 I remember back then

41:16

我们跟一些institutional we talked to some institutional,

41:17

美国的institutional investors some US institutional investors,

41:19

大部分人都不相信 and most of them didn't believe it.

41:21

因为他当时不相信的原因，是因为 The reason they didn't believe it was that

41:23

historically historically,

41:24

就是在Aileen Lee出来 when Aileen Lee came out,

41:27

她是11年还是12年 in 2011 or 2012,

41:28

出这个unicorn的这个paper的时候 with her unicorn paper,

41:30

一共historically historically there had been

41:32

只有60几个unicorn only sixty-some unicorns in total.

41:33

然后到15年的时候 And by 2015,

41:35

大概不到100个unicorn，他就说 there were fewer than 100. So they said,

41:37

你弄十几个 if you get ten-plus,

41:38

那不是占了很大的这个比例吗 isn't that a huge share?

41:41

那是不可能的，但是 That's impossible. But

41:43

但是我当时就跟他们说，我说 I told them back then,

41:44

有几个原因 there are a few reasons

41:45

我认为是可行的，第一个，我说 I think it's doable. First, I said,

41:48

the speed at which the speed at which

41:50

we're minting unicorns we're minting unicorns

41:51

is accelerating is accelerating.

41:52

因为你看today的话，其实 Look at today:

41:55

全球的unicorn，好像是 unicorns worldwide,

41:57

someone did the counting，就是 someone did the counting,

41:59

应该是上千个，对吧 there should be over a thousand, right?

42:01

所以实际上 So actually,

42:03

就是，这些年 in recent years,

42:04

这个unicorn creation unicorn creation

42:06

accelerated by a lot，而且就是 has accelerated by a lot.

42:08

其实就是一个exponential的路，对吧 It's really an exponential path, right?

42:11

什么东西就一开始很慢 Things start out very slowly

42:13

然后花了很长时间才能到，但后 and take a long time to get there,

42:15

到后来 but later on

42:15

他其实越快 they go faster and faster.

42:16

所以我当时说 So I said back then,

42:18

我当时就说 I said,

42:18

其实未来是会accelerate the future will accelerate.

42:20

我认为他会accelerate，所以实际上 I believed it would accelerate. So actually,

42:22

我说你算下来，也许 I said, if you do the math,

42:24

他在这种acceleration的pace的话 at that pace of acceleration,

42:26

就不是占那么大的，因为他 it isn't that big a share. Because

42:28

就没人会信说 nobody would believe

42:29

你会占到20%所有的unicorn you could capture 20% of all unicorns.

42:32

你是不可能的 That's impossible

42:32

一个基金 for one fund.

42:34

所以最后我们也是没有 And in the end we didn't,

42:36

因为实际上30个 because we got thirty,

42:37

现在有上千个 and now there are over a thousand.

42:38

你算下来，其实不是 If you do the math,

42:40

就占的比例 the share

42:41

实际上是合理的 is actually reasonable.

42:44

第二个就是 The second thing is,

42:46

就我 I,

42:47

我当时说，但是我 I said back then,

42:48

第二个我就说 second, I said,

42:50

我们其实在挑的时候 when we pick,

42:52

因为实际上 because actually,

42:53

这个power law，他们就说，你知道 the power law, they'd say, you know,

42:55

有一个power law there's a power law.

42:56

我同意有一个power law I agree there's a power law,

42:58

但是power law的最重要 but what matters most about the power law

43:00

就是说the top is the top.

43:01

你要去看现在 Look at today,

43:03

包括现在的一些数据 including the current data.

43:04

都是top venture firm It's the top venture firms.

43:07

好像top 10个 The top ten or so

43:09

拿到了industry的90%的profit take 90% of the industry's profit.

43:12

就是这个是venture的 That's venture's

43:13

最大的一个不同 biggest difference.

43:14

就是它真的是 It really is

43:17

very few people，venture very few people. Venture,

43:18

我那时候也研究了一下venture I studied venture back then.

43:20

venture是唯一一个industry Venture is the only industry,

43:22

像PE都不是这样的 even PE isn't like this,

43:24

venture是唯一一个industry venture is the only industry

43:26

它的mean是above它的median where the mean is above the median.

43:29

哦 Oh.

43:30

它的mean是above the median，对，所以 The mean is above the median. Right, so

43:33

所以这个 so this,

43:34

一般的应该是below啊 normally it should be below.

43:37

就是因为venture是这样的 It's because of how venture works.

43:38

它的return Its returns:

43:39

80%的venture fund 80% of venture funds

43:41

don't make money don't make money,

43:42

right right?

43:43

只有那百分之十几 Only ten-something percent

43:45

是真的make money的 really make money.

43:46

百分之十几的二十 The top twenty of that ten-something,

43:48

那十几的二十 that top twenty percent,

43:49

但是那个十几的二十 but that top twenty percent

43:50

make a lot of money，所以 makes a lot of money. So

43:52

所以实际上你要是 actually, if you,

43:55

你不能 you can't,

43:55

venture不能是这么 venture can't be

43:57

就是去这么average的去看 looked at on average.

43:59

你要是不在那个top deal flow里面 If you're not in that top deal flow,

44:02

you might as well not do it you might as well not do it,

44:03

因为you're gonna lose money for sure because you're gonna lose money for sure.

44:06

就是比 It's worse,

44:07

比你去Las Vegas还差，你看 worse than going to Las Vegas.

44:10

那你做这个venture就是在最早期 So the venture you do is at the very earliest stage,

44:11

比如说seed的那个 like seed?

44:13

那个venture，对，对，所以 That kind of venture. Right, right. So

44:16

所以因为我们就投早期嘛 we invested early,

44:17

因为我那时候也没有那么多钱 because I didn't have that much money then.

44:18

也不能做晚期 We couldn't do late stage.

44:20

我们只能做早期 We could only do early stage.

44:21

我没有那么多钱，所以 I didn't have that much money, so

44:23

在venture的话 in venture,

44:24

所以这个deal flow的quality the quality of deal flow

44:26

实际上是what you need to pay for is actually what you need to pay for,

44:29

so you have to be willing to pay for it so you have to be willing to pay for it.

44:30

所以当时我们进去的这个就是说 So when we went in,

44:33

虽然我是要pay他carry even though I had to pay them carry,

44:35

就是因为好多人说 a lot of people said,

44:37

你得pay carry you have to pay carry?

44:38

我说it's worth it I said, it's worth it,

44:39

因为这个premium是你要付的 because this premium is something you have to pay.

44:41

因为我们没有在Silicon Valley 20年 We hadn't been in Silicon Valley for twenty years.

44:46

你要光凭我们是进不去的 On our own, we'd never have gotten in.

44:48

但是因为我们愿意付这个钱 But we were willing to pay that price,

44:49

那个时候 back then.

44:50

现在我估计都没了 Now I suspect that's all gone,

44:52

因为现在就是太多了 because there's too much of it now,

44:55

这个quality也不够了 and the quality isn't there anymore.

44:56

所以我觉得当时那个时间点也非常好 So I think the timing back then was very good.

44:58

就是那个时候quality出来了 The quality had emerged,

45:00

但是大部分的人还不知道 but most people didn't yet know

45:02

有这个方式去做 there was this way of doing it.

45:03

现在就是太多人做了 Now too many people do it,

45:05

太多人就更难找 and with so many, it's harder to tell

45:06

谁是好 who's good

45:08

谁是不好的，对吧 and who's not, right?

45:10

而且那些当时我们合作的那些 And the ones we worked with back then,

45:12

那些angel现在都特别有钱 those angels are all very wealthy now.

45:14

他们也都做自己的基金 They all run their own funds too,

45:16

因为大家都知道 because everyone knows

45:16

就是说我如果有钱了以后 once I have money,

45:18

我宁愿做晚一点，对吧，晚一点，第一 I'd rather invest a bit later, right? Later, because first,

45:21

我同样的工作量 with the same work,

45:23

我可以配置更多资金，然后 I can deploy more capital.

45:25

而且到时候回报也会 And the returns will also...

45:27

像我们后来之所以 Like how we later,

45:29

就是我们用了 we used,

45:30

所以当时我们也是用了这样一个想法 we used the same idea back then.

45:32

就是因为我们早期投了 Because we invested early,

45:34

所以后来变成他们有后续投资额度的时候 later, when they had follow-ons,

45:37

我们就可以投 we could invest.

45:38

所以为什么后来我们在 That's why later,

45:40

好比说Stripe in Stripe, for example,

45:41

每次都投500万、1000万 we put in $5 million or $10 million each time.

45:44

那个马上流动性就能出来 The liquidity comes quickly,

45:46

3年5年就能出来 in three to five years.

45:47

所以实际上 So actually,

45:49

虽然我们早期的那一个亿到今天也就只三个亿 our early $100 million has only become $300 million today,

45:53

但是实际上通过那个我们建立的这些关系 but through the relationships we built,

45:57

如果当时后来还有资金，没有 if we'd had more capital later and hadn't

46:00

没有丢掉这些关系 lost those relationships,

46:01

实际上后来我们可能流动性要快得多 our liquidity would probably have come much faster.

46:04

因为这些 Because these,

46:05

这些人后来他出来的这些公司 the companies these people brought along later,

46:08

晚期的公司 the later-stage companies,

46:09

我们是可以投进去的 we could have invested in them.

46:11

所以实际上 So actually,

46:13

就是为了建立这么一个长期路径 it was about building a long-term pipeline,

46:16

我们能够更快 so we could more quickly

46:18

而且更准的 and more accurately

46:19

然后去配置更多的钱 deploy more money.

46:21

然后那个时候 And back then,

46:22

这个基金实际上允许我们 that fund actually allowed us

46:24

去建立那些关系 to build those relationships,

46:26

而且那些关系 and those relationships

46:28

其实是最有用的 were actually the most valuable thing.

46:29

那这个故事很有意思 That's a really interesting story.

46:31

就是说AngelList AngelList,

46:32

首先它是一个意外 first of all, it was an accident,

46:34

有点意外 somewhat of an accident.

46:34

然后结果你们又特别巧 And then your timing happened to be perfect.

46:36

但是是因为你看好了AngelList But was it because you believed in AngelList,

46:39

他的这个战略角度 its angle,

46:40

还是说你是看好了他这个团队 or because you believed in the team?

46:44

还是重点是在哪呢 Where was the focus?

46:46

重点是其实就是要 The focus was really,

46:48

我的重点当时就是我们要有一个进入Silicon Valley 入口 my focus back then was that we needed a way into Silicon Valley.

46:54

因为当时我问过好多的朋友 Because I had asked a lot of friends back then.

46:56

因为有些朋友 Some friends,

46:57

我以前不做风投 I hadn't done venture before,

46:58

但是在McKinsey待过 but I'd been at McKinsey,

47:01

McKinsey有很多人 and I knew a lot of people from McKinsey.

47:03

然后我也认识一些做风投的 I also knew some people in venture,

47:04

后来做PE的 and some who later did PE.

47:06

跟很多人聊 I talked to lots of people,

47:08

就是大家告诉我就是没门儿 and everyone told me: no way.

47:11

你去Silicon Valley You go to Silicon Valley,

47:13

基本上就是最好的一些欧洲的风投机构 and basically even the best European venture firms

47:17

进到Silicon Valley全部失败 all failed in Silicon Valley.

47:19

就没有人成功过 No one ever succeeded,

47:20

因为他就说基本上你是没有办法竞争 because basically, they said, you have no way to compete

47:24

项目源 for deal flow

47:25

跟这些Silicon Valley的这些老家伙，对吧 with Silicon Valley's old guard, right?

47:30

那么老牌子的这些基金 Those long-established funds,

47:33

因为最好的投资项目一定是被他们拿走的 because the best deals always go to them.

47:36

然后那个时候 And back then,

47:38

然后就所有的人都说你是做不成 everyone said you'd never make it.

47:41

你要做传统的风投的模式 If you used a traditional venture firm model,

47:44

肯定是做不成的 you'd definitely fail,

47:45

因为所有的包括欧洲最好的风投机构 because all of them, even the best European venture firms,

47:48

到了Silicon Valley once they got to Silicon Valley,

47:50

最后都等于是铩羽而归，然后 ended up going home empty-handed.

47:54

所以当时我们就想说 So we thought back then,

47:55

那我们就必须要创造一个不同的模式 we have to create a different model.

47:59

要不然的话 Otherwise,

48:00

你根本进不去 you can't get in at all.

48:02

那怎么进去 So how do you get in?

48:04

所以我觉得当时这一点是非常 So I think on this point,

48:06

也确实很幸运 we really were lucky.

48:07

当时正好AngelList AngelList happened to be there then.

48:09

然后我当时就想 And I was thinking,

48:10

然后也是挺有意思的 and it's quite interesting,

48:12

我当时去见那个 I went to see

48:14

一个我原来McKinsey的一个很好的同事 a very good former colleague of mine from McKinsey.

48:17

他那个时候在Temasek He was at Temasek at the time.

48:20

然后他是 He was,

48:21

吴亦兵嘛 Wu Yibing.

48:22

吴亦兵是Temasek Asia的一把手，那个时候 Wu Yibing was head of Temasek Asia then.

48:26

然后我跟他聊 I talked with him,

48:27

然后他，我说 and I said,

48:29

我说这个Silicon Valley怎么进呢 how do you get into Silicon Valley?

48:32

然后他就说 And he said,

48:33

正好当时 as it happened,

48:34

因为AngelList在找这个 AngelList was looking for this.

48:35

他们找了一个人 They'd found someone

48:37

叫做叶惠明 named Ye Huiming.

48:38

叶惠明是SVB Ye Huiming was at SVB,

48:40

那时候是中国的SVB SVB China at the time,

48:42

在中国SVB做 working at SVB in China.

48:43

然后但是呢 But

48:44

跟这个AngelList也有一个关系 he also had a connection with AngelList.

48:47

然后AngelList那个时候 And AngelList at that time

48:48

就想建这么一个机构基金 wanted to set up an institutional fund,

48:51

因为他也发现了自己 because they'd realized

48:53

如果老是这么弄的话 that if things kept going like this,

48:54

那些运营天使投资人就走了 the operator angels would leave.

48:57

因为他们就会觉得太费时间了 They'd feel it took too much time.

48:59

然后为了一个几万块钱的 All this for a few tens of thousands of dollars?

49:01

我要费这么大劲 Why go to all that trouble?

49:02

那我干嘛，对吧 What's the point, right?

49:04

就是有点得不偿失嘛，然后 It wasn't worth it.

49:06

然后那个时候 So back then,

49:07

如果说没有你那个资金进来的话 if your money hadn't come in,

49:08

他们整个这个体系就容易散掉 their whole system could easily have fallen apart?

49:10

就会困难，他有 It would have been hard. They were

49:12

他在经历一些困难 going through some difficulties,

49:14

而且他在烧钱嘛，那个时候 and they were burning cash then.

49:16

然后他当时也是 And at the time they

49:17

确实需要更多的钱 really did need more money,

49:19

然后也需要去证明这个模式 and they needed to prove the model.

49:22

他还是在建立期嘛 They were still in the building phase.

49:24

他那个时候烧钱还烧得挺厉害的，然后 They were burning cash pretty fast back then.

49:27

所以实际上他也需要钱 So they actually needed money too.

49:30

所以当时就真的是这个时间点特别好 So the timing really was great.

49:33

然后我也是很巧 And I happened, by chance,

49:35

就找到了这个关系 to find this connection

49:36

然后找到了AngelList and find AngelList.

49:37

然后他那个当时 And back then,

49:39

我记得亦兵就说，哎 I remember Yibing said,

49:41

我觉得他们的这个模式 I think their model...

49:43

当时他们在找 They were looking

49:44

看谁愿意投这个 for someone willing to invest,

49:45

投钱进去 to put money in

49:46

去帮他们做嘛 and help them do it.

49:48

AngelList在找嘛 AngelList was looking,

49:50

谁愿意做 to see who'd do it.

49:50

但是大部分人从来没有被证明过，所以很多钱，大的资金都不愿意进去 But it had never been proven, so most big money wouldn't go in.

49:57

像这个Temasek是有的是钱，但是Temasek就觉得 Temasek has plenty of money, but Temasek felt,

50:01

他说，但是Temasek永远不会投这个，对吧 he said, Temasek will never invest in this, right?

50:06

而且Temasek已经投进去 And Temasek had already invested in

50:08

Sequoia（红杉）、Andreessen（A16z） Sequoia, Andreessen,

50:10

所以他也没有必要 so there was no need for them

50:11

再去做这么一件事情，对吧 to do something like this, right?

50:13

这个没有意义 It made no sense.

50:15

他就说这个东西 He said this thing,

50:16

Temasek不会有兴趣，他说 Temasek wouldn't be interested. He said,

50:17

但这个东西 but this,

50:18

你要是作为一个新的人进去 if you go in as a newcomer,

50:20

他这个可能是一个挺有意思的入口 it could be a pretty interesting entry

50:23

进入到Silicon Valley，然后 into Silicon Valley.

50:26

我听他讲完以后 After hearing him out,

50:27

我也觉得是 I agreed.

50:28

所以我就开始 So I started,

50:29

我就去找叶惠明 I followed up with Ye Huiming,

50:30

然后后来我们约了 and then we set up

50:32

跟 Naval 一起开个会 a meeting with Naval

50:34

就是我们去 Silicon Valley的时候，跟那个 when we went to Silicon Valley with

50:37

跟那个单总 chairman Shan,

50:38

单祥双一起嘛 Shan Xiangshuang.

50:40

来美国的时候 On that trip to the US,

50:41

就见了Naval we met Naval.

50:43

当时后来单总就拍板说，OK Then chairman Shan made the call: OK,

50:45

this makes sense this makes sense.

50:47

所以后来我们就开始 So we started,

50:48

我们就开始跟Naval去谈 we started negotiating with Naval.

50:50

而且我们也很快，我们大概，你想 And we moved very fast. Think about it,

50:53

我是五月初跟Naval in early May I

50:55

当时谈，说OK said OK to Naval,

50:57

然后我们七月中 and by July,

50:59

还是七月底 mid or late July,

51:01

两个多月 a little over two months,

51:02

然后当时还要看 and we still had things to review.

51:03

Naval后来还到中国来签的那个合同 Naval even came to China later to sign the contract.

51:05

大概两三个月就签完了 It was all signed in about two or three months,

51:07

因为也是我们快 because we were fast.

51:09

因为当时Naval也在跟其他的地方谈 Naval was also in talks with others back then,

51:12

包括跟欧洲的一些家庭办公室 including family offices in Europe,

51:15

跟印度的一些家庭办公室 family offices in India,

51:17

包括南美的一些家庭办公室，都在谈 and family offices in South America.

51:20

但是那些人呢 But those people,

51:22

就是你知道的 you know,

51:24

你现在也跟家庭办公室 you work with family offices now too.

51:25

就花时间 They take their time.

51:26

他没有紧迫性 They had no urgency,

51:28

因为这也不是说 because this wasn't

51:30

一个已经印证的模式 a proven model.

51:32

他要想啊 They wanted to think it over,

51:33

他要弄啊 work through it.

51:33

当时我们有一个好处 We had one advantage back then.

51:36

就是当时 At the time,

51:36

正好中科招商是很迫切地想进 CSC Group was very eager to get into,

51:41

想进这个Silicon Valley to get into Silicon Valley.

51:42

而且也是我当时可能也有一点私心，就是说 And maybe I had a bit of a personal motive too.

51:47

当时我 Back then,

51:48

中科招商招我的时候 when CSC Group recruited me,

51:50

我答应单总 I made chairman Shan a promise.

51:52

就是他当时招我就说，你能不能 When he recruited me, he asked, could you,

51:54

要不然你帮我做国际业务 why don't you help me with the international business?

51:57

因为我当时 Because back then,

51:58

其实不太想继续在中国了 I didn't really want to stay in China.

52:01

他说 He said,

52:01

让我帮他去做国际业务的时候，我说，OK when he asked me to do international business, I said OK,

52:04

因为我当时就想回来 because I wanted to come back.

52:06

然后就正好 And it worked out perfectly.

52:07

所以我就说 So I said,

52:08

我尽快把这个项目做了 let me get this deal done fast,

52:10

我就正好有理由回来美国，对吧 and I'd have a reason to come back to the US, right?

52:12

到Silicon Valley，所以 To Silicon Valley. So

52:14

所以我个人也有点动机，然后正好，那个 I personally had some motivation too. And it so happened

52:18

这个中科招商也有这个意愿 CSC Group also wanted

52:20

想进到Silicon Valley这个生态 to get into the Silicon Valley ecosystem.

52:23

然后我们就觉得这个模式很好 We thought this model was great,

52:25

然后这是一个方式让我们进去，所以 a way for us to get in. So

52:28

我们在这个事情上动作很快 we moved really fast on it.

52:31

因为其他的 Because the others,

52:33

当时后来 later on,

52:34

我其实后来两年以后吧 actually, two years later,

52:36

还是三年以后 or maybe three,

52:36

我见了一个人 I met someone.

52:38

他就是当时在 He was,

52:40

因为当时一开始 because at first,

52:41

我觉得Naval跟我们说 Naval told us

52:42

他跟别的地方的一些投资人在谈 he was talking with investors elsewhere.

52:45

我觉得他可能也就是 I thought he was probably just,

52:46

说说而已吧 just saying that.

52:48

就是因为你想 Because, think about it,

52:49

你总是要创造FOMO（损失厌恶）嘛，对对对 you always want to create FOMO. Right, right.

52:51

就我们作为销售 In sales,

52:52

肯定要 you'd definitely,

52:53

肯定要为了让你来，也要说 to get you in, you'd say,

52:55

我这边还有 I've got others,

52:56

还有人在谈 others in talks with me.

52:58

你们要不同意 If you don't agree,

52:59

我就去那边谈，对吧 I'll go talk to them, right?

53:01

大概两三年以后 About two or three years later,

53:03

我在Silicon Valley一个会上 at a conference in Silicon Valley,

53:05

见了一个人 I met a man,

53:06

然后那个人 and that man

53:07

还真的就是在帮他做 really had been helping him with

53:09

欧洲的这个家庭办公室 a family office in Europe.

53:10

但是他就说 But he said,

53:12

你们动作太快了 you moved too fast.

53:14

然后他说 And he said,

53:15

你们拿下了这单 you got the deal.

53:16

但他也喜欢这个模式 But he liked the model too.

53:17

他就觉得，这是一个，其实 He felt it was actually,

53:20

如果任何一个家族办公室 if any family office

53:21

当时要能抓住这个机会的话 could have grabbed that chance back then...

53:24

但是欧洲的家族办公室 But European family offices

53:25

就很慢，他说 are very slow. He said,

53:27

你们出手了 you moved first.

53:29

就是我感觉 My impression,

53:30

就是我是外人的一个感觉，就是说，Steve Jobs as an outsider, is that Steve Jobs,

53:33

他的这种感觉 the feel of him,

53:34

其实跟Naval好像有一点点像 is actually a little like Naval.

53:36

我不知道是我的一个 I don't know if that's just my...

53:37

也不一样 No, they're different.

53:38

因为他们两个 Because the two of them,

53:39

他们三个人都很不一样，是吧 the three of them are all very different, right?

53:42

那Steve到底是一个什么样的感觉 So what was Steve really like?

53:43

因为他最后 Because in the end,

53:44

大家都众说纷纭 everyone has a different story about him.

53:45

那个时候网络也不太发达 The internet wasn't very developed then,

53:47

然后好像也没有这种 and there weren't really

53:49

就是很多的展示自己的这种机会 many chances for people to show themselves,

53:51

在那个时期 not in that era.

53:52

所以就这三个人 So these three people,

53:54

给你一个感觉是一个 what impression did they give you?

53:57

就是他的气场到底是什么样的 What was their aura really like?

54:00

Steve Steve.

54:01

我觉得Steve有一点 I think Steve was a bit,

54:03

在产品上 when it comes to product,

54:05

他很像Elon he was a lot like Elon.

54:07

但是在做事 But in how he worked,

54:08

他是非常精益求精的 he strove relentlessly for perfection.

54:10

而且我就记得 And I remember

54:11

我第一次 the first time,

54:13

也是最后一次 and also the last time,

54:14

见到Steve I met Steve,

54:15

在一个会上 at a meeting.

54:17

那个时候是我在苹果 It was during my

54:19

第一年的时候 first year at Apple.

54:22

然后我在一个销售会上 I was at a sales meeting

54:24

见到Steve and saw Steve.

54:25

然后Steve当时说了 And Steve said,

54:27

当时他说了三句话 he said three things

54:29

让我记一辈子 that I'll remember for the rest of my life.

54:31

第一句话他就说的是 The first thing he said was,

54:35

这个世界上有很 in this world there are many...

54:37

就是所谓的80/20嘛，80/20 the so-called 80/20, 80/20.

54:39

这个世界上有很多的公司 Many companies in the world

54:42

做80/20 do 80/20.

54:43

他是做20的工作 They do 20% of the work

54:45

去完成80的效果 to get 80% of the result.

54:47

苹果是唯一一个公司 Apple is the only company

54:48

我们做另一种的 that does the other

54:51

80/20 80/20.

54:52

我们多投入80%的努力 We put 80% more effort

54:56

去把最后的20%做到完美 into making the last 20% perfect.

54:59

所以苹果就是一个 So Apple is

55:00

精益求精的公司，它就是 a company that strives for perfection.

55:02

它是这么要求 That's what it demands.

55:03

所以你看它的产品 So look at its products:

55:04

确实是非常的精益求精 they really are refined to perfection.

55:06

它是一个 He was

55:07

非常非常 an extremely,

55:08

完美主义的一个 extremely perfectionist

55:10

一个人 person.

55:11

所以我觉得这个是，它跟 So I think that's what set him apart

55:17

它跟其他的这个 from the others,

55:18

不管是Naval啊，还是 whether Naval or

55:21

还是这个 anyone else.

55:22

因为它有一点艺术的情结，我觉得 He had a bit of an artist's spirit, I think,

55:25

有一点理想主义的这种情结，它跟 something idealistic. That's

55:27

包括Elon都不太一样的地方 where he differs, even from Elon.

55:29

就它对产品是非常精益求精，其实 He was obsessive about perfecting the product.

55:32

包括就是 Including,

55:33

后来我在苹果待了时间久了以后，我刚才说 after I'd been at Apple a while, like I said,

55:37

那种苹果 at Apple,

55:38

我们有的时候不 we never,

55:39

就是我们不提前发布我们的产品嘛 we never pre-announced our products, right?

55:42

其实不提前发布 Actually, not pre-announcing

55:43

其实是因为Steve是需要 was because of what Steve needed.

55:45

他也不知道什么时候 He didn't know when

55:46

这个产品能做到他满意 a product would be good enough to satisfy him.

55:48

所以他要 So he had to,

55:49

他要做到他满意了 only once he was satisfied

55:51

他才可以发布 could he announce it.

55:52

所以实际上也不是说 So it's not really that

55:54

他故意要怎么样，他就是 he was doing it on purpose. He just,

55:57

他不想给人看不好的东西 he didn't want to show people anything bad.

56:00

他就是一个精益求精的这么一个人 He was a perfectionist through and through,

56:02

所以他也不愿意 so he wasn't willing to.

56:04

他不像Elon就是 Unlike Elon, who,

56:05

还没做好 before it's ready,

56:06

那就先发布 announces it first.

56:07

他跟这个这一点 On this point,

56:08

跟Elon正好是 he and Elon are

56:09

几乎正好就是背道而驰的 almost exact opposites.

56:12

他是一定要等 He insisted on waiting.

56:13

他一定要给 He had to give

56:14

给大家这个完美的东西，对啊 everyone something perfect. Right.

56:17

他要呈现 What he presented

56:18

他就是他的产品 was his product,

56:20

他的骄傲 his pride.

56:20

他是一个非常 He was very...

56:21

那他很辛苦的，理想主义的，是 That must have been hard on him. Idealistic, yes.

56:23

他很辛苦的 It was hard on him.

56:24

所以那个时候 So back then,

56:25

其实苹果挺逗的 Apple was actually pretty funny.

56:27

那个后来苹果 Later at Apple,

56:29

我到时候给你发一个东西 I'll send you something later.

56:30

就是苹果后来 At Apple later,

56:32

我进入到苹果 when I joined Apple,

56:33

我进入到苹果还没有 when I'd just joined Apple,

56:34

后来我觉得是Steve写的 I think Steve wrote it,

56:36

你加入到苹果的时候 when you joined Apple,

56:37

会给你一张卡片 they'd give you a card.

56:40

这张卡片上面就写 And the card said,

56:41

就是其实上面他就写到 what he wrote on it was,

56:43

他说那个这个世界等于是 he said, in this world,

56:46

这个世界上有很多事情 there are many things in this world.

56:48

有一些事情 There are some things

56:50

你会愿意 you're willing to

56:50

要精益求精 pursue to perfection.

56:52

你会愿意 You're willing to

56:53

牺牲你的家庭 sacrifice your family for them.

56:55

然后 And

56:56

那些事情，然后他说 those things. And he said,

56:57

你到苹果 at Apple,

56:58

就是我们在深水区游泳，然后 we're swimming in the deep end,

57:01

我们在做有意义的事情 we're doing something that matters,

57:03

对吧 right?

57:03

现在，欢迎来到苹果 And now, welcome to Apple.

57:05

这个整个那个 The whole thing,

57:06

那个怎么写 the way it was written,

57:07

就是很有情结 it had real feeling.

57:09

就Steve是一个很有情结的人 Steve was a man of deep feeling.

57:12

不是说，好感动 Not that... That's so moving.

57:13

不是说Elon没有情结 Not that Elon doesn't have that feeling,

57:15

但是他的那个 but his,

57:16

那种精益求精的那种情结 his passion for perfection

57:18

跟Elon的那种 is different from Elon's.

57:19

Elon是要破釜沉舟的那种东西，那种 Elon is about burning the boats,

57:22

那种雄 that kind of,

57:23

就是真的是要改变世界的那种雄心壮志 the ambition to truly change the world.

57:26

他是一种 He was,

57:28

我觉得Jobs是一种精益求精的艺术家的感觉 I think Jobs had the feel of an artist chasing perfection.

57:31

所以这两个点有点不一样，这两个人 So those two are a bit different, those two people.

57:34

然后呢，这个 And then,

57:37

我觉得Naval呢 I think Naval,

57:38

Naval是更 Naval is more,

57:39

更 more,

57:40

就像你说的 like you said,

57:41

他是更像一个创业者 he's more of an entrepreneur.

57:43

就是他会去适应，然后去 He adapts, and

57:45

但是他很聪明 but he's very smart.

57:46

就是知道说什么时候我要 He knows when

57:49

怎么去谈判 and how to negotiate,

57:50

怎么去谈 how to make a deal,

57:51

然后这里面 and where in it

57:52

哪能创造最多的价值 the most value can be created.

57:54

但是他的价值也是 But his value is also about

57:55

我怎么实现最多的价值在里面 how to capture the most value from it.

57:59

我觉得 I think

57:59

这也是一种智慧 that's also a kind of wisdom,

58:01

这个很不容易的 and it's not easy.

58:02

所以他们三个人其实 So the three of them are actually

58:04

都很不一样 very different.

58:05

他们三个人给我的感觉都很不一样，然后 To me, the three of them feel very different.

58:08

我觉得就说 I'd say

58:09

所以Steve是一个很精益求精 Steve really strove for perfection.

58:10

那第二点他说的 The second thing he said,

58:11

我觉得也是跟他 I think also relates to

58:13

跟他个人的经历有关系，他就说 his own personal experience. He said,

58:15

我们的好坏只取决于我们的下一个产品 we're only as good as our next product.

58:19

然后这个当然就是跟这个 And of course this relates to,

58:22

因为他说就是借了这个 he said he borrowed it,

58:24

当然也是因为他 of course, because he

58:25

他和这个Disney（迪士尼）有合作嘛，所以他说 worked with Disney. So he said,

58:28

Disney曾经说过 Disney once said,

58:30

我们的好坏只取决于我们的下一部电影 we're only as good as our next picture.

58:32

他说苹果 He said at Apple,

58:33

我们完全是一样的 we're exactly the same.

58:34

我们的好坏只取决于我们的下一个产品 We're only as good as our next product.

58:36

所以他是一个很以产品为中心的人 So he was very product-centric,

58:38

而且他完全的就是 and he was completely,

58:40

我觉得他很接地气 I think, very down to earth.

58:42

他说的那种 As he put it,

58:43

就是你过去的成就 your past achievements

58:45

都是过眼云烟 are fleeting.

58:46

现在最重要就是你下面 What matters most now is your next,

58:48

你下面的选择 your next choice,

58:49

你现在做的事情 what you're doing now,

58:51

你下一个东西是什么 what your next thing is,

58:52

而不是你过去的成功 not your past success.

58:54

当然他自己也经历过 Of course, he lived through it himself.

58:55

就是过去的成功可能 Past success can

58:57

最后变成 end up becoming,

58:58

变成就是 becoming,

59:00

他就像他说，他变成 like he said, he ended up

59:02

30多岁被公司踢掉了 getting kicked out of his company in his thirties.

59:04

你过去做的再成功 No matter how successful you were,

59:05

你今天没有做好 if you don't do well today,

59:07

你下一步就没有了，对吧 there's no next step, right?

59:10

和他 With him,

59:10

我觉得他和他经历有关系 I think it relates to his experience.

59:11

但是他 But he,

59:12

他在那么成功的时候 at the height of his success,

59:13

能说出这句话 could say something like this.

59:14

我觉得是一个非常 I think that's very,

59:16

让你感觉 it makes you feel,

59:17

让我感觉至少是 at least it made me feel,

59:18

就是一个非常接地气 that it was very down to earth.

59:20

就是所有的人 Everyone,

59:20

那个时候外面人都觉得 people outside back then all thought

59:21

好像他怎么傲慢 he was so arrogant.

59:23

其实我觉得他不是傲慢 Actually, I don't think he was arrogant.

59:24

他就是非常追求 He just aimed very high.

59:26

他有很高的追求 He held himself to a very high standard.

59:27

他不能接受差劲、平庸，对吧 He couldn't accept poor or average, right?

59:31

所以这就是他的 So that's his,

59:33

就是他的这种 that's who he was.

59:35

然后第三点 And the third thing

59:36

他当时说的 he said back then,

59:37

我觉得也是让我 I think it also,

59:40

就是改变我人生，就是说 it changed my life. He said,

59:42

我对那些我拒绝了的事情 The things I said no to,

59:44

感到骄傲 I'm as proud of them

59:46

就像对那些我答应了的事情一样 as of the things I said yes to.

59:47

你知道 You know,

59:48

正因为我能够拒绝 it's because I was able to say no to

59:51

所有这些事情 all these things

59:51

我才能专注 that I can focus.

59:52

就是他就讲到就是专注 He was talking about focus.

59:55

他是一个很专注的人 He was an incredibly focused person.

59:56

你看他这一辈子就做了苹果、NeXT，这个 Look, his whole life he did Apple and NeXT.

60:02

我觉得实际上这个 I think actually,

60:04

他真的是这一辈子 his whole life,

60:05

可能钟爱的就是一个苹果 the one thing he truly loved was Apple,

60:08

而且就是苹果的产品 and Apple's products.

60:09

因为实际上我觉得Pixar是一个插曲 Pixar, I think, was really an interlude.

60:14

但是正好他也做成了 It happened to succeed too,

60:16

但是实际上是因为他被踢出去了 but really it was because he got kicked out,

60:18

然后他被迫去做别的事情 and he was forced to do something else.

60:21

然后他做了 So he did it,

60:22

结果当然后来也成功了 and of course it worked out,

60:24

但是实际上是一个插曲 but it was really an interlude.

60:26

但是他的 But his,

60:28

等于是他的最爱永远是苹果，我觉得 his true love was always Apple, I think.

60:31

所以他实际上 So actually,

60:33

他就说 he said,

60:33

他跟他说 he said,

60:34

我说了很多 I've said many,

60:35

我对很多事情都说了不，对吧 I've said no to many things, right?

60:37

不是因为它们不好 Not because they're not good.

60:38

它们都是好主意 They're good ideas.

60:40

它们只是不是我想做的，对吧 They're just not what I want to do, right?

60:42

所以他就 So he,

60:43

他那个意思就是说 what he meant was,

60:45

但是因为我拒绝了 because I said no to

60:47

999件事 999 things,

60:48

我才能把这一件事做得非常好 I can do this one thing really well.

60:50

而且他只在乎把这一件事做得非常好，对吧，所以 And he only cared about doing this one thing really well, right? So

60:54

所以我就记得就是 I remember,

60:56

他真的是对我来讲 for me, he really was,

60:58

我觉得是有点精神领袖那种感觉 I'd say, a bit of a spiritual leader.

61:01

而且就他说的很多事情 And a lot of what he said,

61:03

他因为他有这种艺术的感觉 because he had that artistic sense,

61:04

他能够把它提炼到非常简单的几句话 he could distill it into a few very simple sentences

61:09

然后让你觉得非常有冲击力，就是有点 that hit you really hard. It had a bit of,

61:12

真的有点道家的那种感觉，就是你想 it really had a Taoist feel. Think about it,

61:14

《道德经》也就用才不到六千字，对吧，对 the Tao Te Ching is fewer than six thousand characters, right? Right.

61:17

他能够把这个提炼到一个很简单的话，让你 He could distill things into very simple words.

61:21

包括后来就是Steve的一些全员大会啊 Even with Steve's later all-hands meetings

61:24

什么那些东西 and things like that,

61:25

我都觉得就Steve不是一个很多话的人 I always felt Steve wasn't a man of many words.

61:30

他没有那么多的话 He didn't say much.

61:31

你问他一个问题 Ask him a question,

61:32

他很简单 and he'd keep it simple,

61:34

用一句话会回答你 answering you in one sentence.

61:35

但是那一句话就是一针见血 But that one sentence went straight to the heart,

61:38

然后就非常有这种智慧，对吧 full of wisdom, right?

61:42

有那种智慧的一句话 One sentence, full of wisdom.

61:45

所以我是个人 So for me personally,

61:47

他可能我从这三个人来 of these three people,

61:50

我觉得他是对我来讲最有个人魅力 I think he has the most personal charisma.

61:53

从你的经历来说 Looking at your career,

61:55

你看你从Motorola（摩托罗拉）到苹果 you went from Motorola to Apple

61:58

正好是苹果要进入下一个阶段的这个时期，然后呢 just as Apple was entering its next phase.

62:02

你又从这个苹果到了Tesla Then from Apple to Tesla,

62:05

也是这样一个里程碑的这个时间点 also at a milestone moment.

62:09

然后从Tesla到后来在Silicon Valley Then from Tesla to Silicon Valley,

62:12

正好那个时候也是Silicon Valley要起飞的那个时间点 right when Silicon Valley was about to take off.

62:16

所以给我的感觉就是你总是会踩在这些特别重要的点上 So it feels like you always land on these key moments.

62:22

所以你才跟我说 And you told me

62:23

你现在正在做这个生物 you're now working on bio,

62:25

叫生物科技的 biotech,

62:27

工业生物科技 industrial biotech.

62:30

叫生物工程 Bioengineering.

62:31

这个东西首先怎么理解 First, how should we understand it?

62:34

然后另外一个就是你当时怎么会 And second, how did you,

62:36

鉴于你之前的履历 given your track record,

62:38

我就觉得这件事情 I wonder about this,

62:40

你到底是怎么样想 how did you think about it,

62:41

就是现在这个时间点要做这件事情 doing this at this point in time?

62:43

因为这个也不是一个新的一个，对对对 Because this isn't something new. Right, right.

62:46

就从技术的角度已经发展了很长时间了 Technologically, it's been developing for a long time.

62:49

但是为什么在这个时间点 So why, at this point,

62:50

你会这么去努力的去在这件事情上去钻 are you putting so much effort into digging into this?

62:54

我觉得是这样啊 I think it's like this.

62:55

你从刚才讲的那些东西来讲 From what we just discussed,

62:58

就是说其实任何一个事情都是需要一个积累的 anything takes time to build up.

63:01

就包括互联网的成长，对吧 Take the growth of the internet, right?

63:03

互联网其实我们最早美国军部开始 The internet actually started with the US military.

63:08

国防部开始用这个网络的时候是50年代，对吧 The Defense Department started using the network in the fifties, right?

63:15

20世纪50年代 The 1950s.

63:16

然后到90年代末的时候 Then by the late nineties,

63:20

包括浏览器开始出来 browsers came out,

63:21

那个时候拨号上网，对吧 and back then it was dial-up, right?

63:23

其实它是一个过程 It was really a process.

63:25

然后前面三四十年很慢的，对吧 The first thirty or forty years were very slow, right?

63:28

然后从2000年 Then from 2000,

63:30

然后包括这个泡沫破裂以后 after the bubble burst,

63:32

然后2001年慢慢 slowly from 2001,

63:34

从2004年、05年云开始出现 around 2004 or 2005, the cloud started to appear,

63:37

就是Amazon（亚马逊）的云开始出现 Amazon's cloud.

63:39

到10年实际上都是在打这个 Up to 2010, it was really all about

63:44

我觉得打基础，然后你 laying the foundation, I think.

63:46

而且后来你包括Google的出现 And then Google came along.

63:49

你会发现Google开始起来 You'll see that as Google took off,

63:51

这个曲线开始拐弯向上 the curve started to inflect.

63:55

所以我觉得人类的发展 So I think in human development,

63:57

任何一个东西 anything,

63:58

技术啊什么的 technology or otherwise,

63:59

都是一个 follows what

64:00

我叫它指数曲线 I call an exponential curve.

64:02

指数曲线就是二的二十二次方 An exponential curve is like two to the twenty-second power,

64:04

或者二十几次方 or the twenty-something power.

64:06

就是一开始的二三十年 For the first twenty or thirty years,

64:08

是你看不到的 you can't see it.

64:09

就你永远是觉得它很慢 It always feels slow.

64:12

就是所以人家说嘛 That's why people say,

64:14

事情总是比 things are always slower than,

64:17

就是短期来看 in the short term,

64:19

总是比人们预期的慢 always slower than people expect,

64:21

长期来看 and in the long term,

64:22

总是超出人们的预期，对吧 always exceed people's expectations, right?

64:25

这就是指数曲线 That's the exponential curve.

64:26

但是人一般是不会 But people generally don't,

64:28

就大部分的人 most people don't.

64:29

因为我是学数学的 Because I studied math,

64:31

所以对我来讲 so for me...

64:32

但是很多人 But for a lot of people,

64:33

人的思维是线性的 human thinking is linear.

64:35

这就是为什么 That's why,

64:36

为什么大部分的人会永远是 why most people always find that things

64:39

短期表现不及预期 underperform expectations in the short term

64:40

长期超出预期，对吧 and exceed them in the long term, right?

64:42

因为人的思维永远是这样的，线性 Because people always think this way, linearly.

64:45

就大部分人看都是线性 Most people see everything as linear.

64:48

他看这个太慢的时候，他就觉得 When something moves slowly, they think

64:50

这个就是太慢 it's just too slow.

64:50

然后就跟那个 It's like that,

64:52

说就是IBM Watson吧 like IBM's Watson,

64:54

说未来世界只需要五台计算机 who said the world would only need five computers.

64:56

很蠢，对吧 Stupid, right?

64:58

但是他只看了现在，对吧 He only looked at the present, right?

65:00

他没有去看发展 He didn't look at how things develop.

65:02

所以也是我为什么很喜欢《易经》 That's also why I love the I Ching.

65:05

《易经》是讲就是变化，对吧 The I Ching is about change, right?

65:08

变化是唯一不变的 Change is the only constant.

65:09

《易经》是讲这个变化的原理，对吧 The I Ching is about the principles of change, right?

65:14

所以实际上 So actually,

65:17

我觉得就是说 I think,

65:19

在你看整个这个 when you look at the whole picture,

65:21

就包括这个互联网 including the internet,

65:23

不管是互联网 whether it's the internet,

65:24

包括我回中国那点 or when I went back to China.

65:26

我是90年代末的时候回到中国 I went back to China in the late nineties,

65:28

那个时候中国也是在这个拐点上面 and China was also at an inflection point then.

65:31

因为 Because...

65:32

所以你需要去看的时候 So when you look at something,

65:34

不要去看它过去的方式 don't look at how it worked in the past.

65:37

而是要看它的几个 Instead, look at a few,

65:39

我觉得你要关键看几个点 I think there are a few key things to look at.

65:42

第一个就是 The first is,

65:43

刚才讲的就是它的生态系统 as I just said, its ecosystem,

65:46

就是它的这个发展 its development.

65:47

是不是已经成熟了 Is it mature yet?

65:49

不是要看这个表象 Don't look at the surface.

65:50

要去了解它的驱动力 Understand its drivers.

65:53

然后我觉得确实就是 And honestly, I think,

65:55

不管是当时 whether back then,

65:58

其实当时我离开 actually, when I left,

65:59

我去苹果离开摩托 when I left Motorola for Apple,

66:01

很大一部分也不是说看到苹果怎么样 a big part of it wasn't seeing how great Apple was.

66:04

很大一部分是看到摩托未来 A big part was seeing that Motorola's future

66:06

是肯定不行的 was definitely doomed.

66:08

所以也有一点运气在里面 So there was some luck in it too.

66:10

然后所以实际上 So actually,

66:13

但是呢 but

66:14

回头总结的话 looking back and summing it up,

66:15

就是说当时我有 I had,

66:16

可能有一个这种直觉 maybe, a kind of gut feeling

66:18

就是这个行业 about the industry.

66:21

在某一个行业 In a given industry,

66:22

那个时候摩托还是全球第二大的手机生产商 Motorola was still the world's second-largest phone maker back then.

66:25

那个叫什么 What was it called,

66:27

Motorola Motorola,

66:28

那个手机型号叫什么，Razr（刀锋），对 and the phone model was the Razr, right.

66:30

所以实际上，但是呢 But

66:33

从我个人的感觉 personally, I felt

66:34

就是我已经感觉这个公司没有 that this company had no

66:36

未来没有希望 future, no hope.

66:38

然后苹果我不知道 As for Apple, I didn't know.

66:40

但是苹果当时我记得 But I remember that back then,

66:41

加入苹果的，苹果是0.1%的市场份额 when I joined, Apple had 0.1% market share.

66:46

就是它的电脑 That was its computers,

66:47

然后你说还没有手机 and there was no phone yet.

66:49

也不知道它会有手机 We didn't know it would have a phone.

66:51

大概觉得它会有 I sort of thought it would,

66:52

但是不知道那个手机会做成多好，然后 but didn't know how good that phone would be.

66:56

所以 So,

66:58

但是我总是觉得一张白纸 but I always felt a blank sheet of paper

67:01

比较好画画 is easier to draw on.

67:03

反而比那个现有的东西还好 It's actually better than something that already exists.

67:07

那我觉得从生物学的角度 And I think, from a biology standpoint,

67:10

给我的是一样的感觉 it gives me the same feeling.

67:11

就是生物学实际上一直是，从测序 Biology has actually gone from sequencing,

67:14

是50年代 which came out in the 1950s,

67:16

出来到计算机测序 to computer sequencing,

67:18

就是基因 genetics.

67:23

从有了测序仪 Then sequencers came along,

67:25

就是Illumina Illumina,

67:26

真正革新了这个行业 which really revolutionized this industry.

67:29

而且从2000年 And from 2000

67:31

你看到当时我介入的时候 to when I got involved,

67:34

2021年 in 2021,

67:36

测序的成本下降了一百万倍 the cost of sequencing dropped a million times.

67:40

一百万倍 A million times.

67:42

第一个测序 The first sequencing,

67:43

完整测序 the first full sequence,

67:45

是花了上亿美金 cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

67:47

现在一个测序 Now one sequence,

67:49

去测一个完整的DNA sequencing a full genome,

67:51

五百到一千块钱，天哪，然后 costs $500 to $1,000. Amazing.

67:56

然后 And

67:56

那个时候测序的第一个 back then, the first one,

67:58

我们测序的第一个DNA the first DNA we sequenced,

68:00

花了十几个月 took over ten months.

68:03

现在测序 Now sequencing

68:05

几分钟，我的天 takes minutes. Unbelievable.

68:07

所以你看到这个技术的成熟度 So you can see how mature this technology is,

68:10

就它的发展是非常迅速 how fast it has developed.

68:12

就是这些年实际上它已经到了一个 In recent years it has reached a point

68:15

把一个成本降到 where the cost has come down.

68:17

其实像你看那个计算 Look at computing,

68:18

半导体也是一样的 semiconductors are the same.

68:20

它是这个计算到了一定程度以后 Only once computing reached a certain point

68:23

它才发展的 did things take off.

68:24

因为我看电脑的话，你看 Because if you look at computers,

68:27

电脑在2000年初的时候 In the early 2000s,

68:30

实际上是有过一次 there was actually a wave

68:33

叫做ASP，那个时候 called ASP back then,

68:35

叫做Application Service Provider（应用服务提供商），这些 Application Service Providers.

68:37

其实ASP ASP

68:38

其实它的模式跟SaaS（软件即服务）很像 was actually a lot like the SaaS model.

68:41

它就是说我来做一个应用 The idea was, I build an application,

68:44

那大家可以分享这个应用 and everyone can share it.

68:47

不是说只买一个软件 Instead of just buying software

68:49

你可以安装在你的 and installing it on your machine,

68:50

是一个基于云的 it was cloud-based.

68:51

但是那个时候没有云 But there was no cloud then,

68:53

因为是2000年的时候，没有云 because it was 2000. No cloud.

68:57

就每一个公司都得自己建一个云 Every company had to build its own cloud,

69:00

那自己建一个云就很贵嘛 and building your own cloud is expensive,

69:03

几千万 tens of millions.

69:04

从有了云以后 Once the cloud existed,

69:05

就都变成了应用 everything became applications.

69:07

那这个增量成本就变成 The incremental cost came down,

69:09

然后你可以扩展 and you could scale,

69:10

无限制地扩展 without limit.

69:11

所以SaaS后来起来了 So SaaS took off later

69:12

是因为它成本得到了控制 because its costs came under control,

69:14

因为它有了这个基础设施 because the infrastructure was there.

69:16

那么 So

69:18

那如果这个技术不断地成熟的话 if a technology keeps maturing,

69:21

那在这个技术的积累上面 building on what's accumulated,

69:23

你就会发现说 you'll find that

69:24

当这个成本降低到一定程度 once costs drop far enough...

69:26

包括因为我学数学了 Also, because I studied math,

69:28

所以我对这个很了解 so I know this well.

69:29

就是现在很多的所谓的AI（人工智能）也好 A lot of today's so-called AI,

69:33

模型也好 or models,

69:34

实际上这些模型 these models actually

69:36

20年前就有了 existed twenty years ago.

69:37

但是20年前 But twenty years ago,

69:39

你用那个时候的成本去做这样的计算 doing that computing at the cost back then

69:42

那是天文数字 was astronomical.

69:44

没人会做 Nobody would do that.

69:45

但现在就像，哦对，没错 But now it's like, oh yeah, right.

69:48

所以实际上好多东西 So a lot of things,

69:50

就是因为成本的降低 simply because costs came down,

69:51

它才成为可能 became possible.

69:53

所以对我来讲 So for me,

69:54

我就看到了，好 I saw, OK,

69:56

这个生物学的 biology,

69:57

就是去解析生物学的技术 the technology for decoding biology,

70:00

它在指数级降低 is getting exponentially cheaper.

70:02

而且已经达到一定程度 And it has already reached a certain point.

70:03

下面的再指数 From here, the exponential

70:05

会更快 will be even faster,

70:06

因为计算在继续 because computing keeps

70:08

继续走这个摩尔定律 following Moore's Law.

70:10

它的降低会比摩尔定律还要快 And this will fall even faster than Moore's Law,

70:12

因为它已经比较 because it's already,

70:13

因为它是利用了计算 because it builds on computing

70:15

然后再去开发 and develops on top of it.

70:17

但是当然生物学的数据 Of course, biological data

70:18

要远远比消费者数据 is vastly larger than consumer data,

70:20

还要不知道大多少多少倍 by who knows how many times.

70:22

但是它的速度也会降得更快 But its cost will also fall faster.

70:25

所以它到了一个程度 So it has reached a point

70:27

它实际上开始解锁 where it actually starts to unlock.

70:29

那再往前 And from here,

70:30

它就会解锁得越来越快 it will unlock faster and faster.

70:32

那在这个点上 So at this point,

70:34

我就觉得说 I think

70:35

这值得考虑 it's worth considering,

70:36

因为这个时候它解锁 because this is when it unlocks.

70:38

因为生物学实际上 Because with biology,

70:39

我们对生物学了解不到万分之一，所以 we understand less than one ten-thousandth of it.

70:44

但是随着这个速度的增快和解析 But as the speed increases and we decode more,

70:47

那未来可以解锁的价值就会很高 the value we can unlock in the future will be huge.

70:50

所以我就认为说 So I believe

70:51

而且这是会未来二三十年 and this will, over the next twenty or thirty years,

70:54

甚至五十年 even fifty years,

70:55

会继续发展 keep developing,

70:57

不断地发展 continuously.

70:57

所以我认为这是一个未来 So I believe this is,

70:59

一定是一个未来的一个 for certain, one of the keys

71:01

关键的一个 to the future.

71:03

而且这是第一个 That's the first point:

71:05

就是它技术的发展和技术到一定点上 the technology's development, and once it reaches a certain point,

71:08

它的这种爆发力和指数级的成功 its explosive power and exponential growth.

71:10

第二点 Second,

71:11

就是你要想人类 think about humanity,

71:13

从人类的角度 from humanity's perspective,

71:14

我们自己生存的角度 from the perspective of our own survival.

71:17

真正地球自己的方式 The Earth's own way

71:20

就是它生产出来的东西 is that what it produces

71:21

然后它消耗 gets consumed

71:23

然后它回去 and then goes back.

71:24

是一个循环的 It's circular.

71:26

我们现在人类的生产方式 The way humans produce things today

71:28

实际上是有问题的 is actually a problem.

71:29

我们第一 First,

71:30

现在我们的供应链就看到了，对吧 we've seen it in our supply chains, right?

71:33

我们大部分的 Most of,

71:34

现在的80% about 80% of

71:36

我们需要的东西都依赖一个 the things we need depend on one thing:

71:40

就是石油，对 petroleum.

71:41

没有石油 Without petroleum,

71:43

我们很多的这些东西 many of these things,

71:45

我们用的东西都不存在了 the things we use, wouldn't exist.

71:47

但是这个东西 But for one,

71:48

一个它是有限的 it's finite.

71:49

也就是我们知道 As we know,

71:51

因为它需要上百万年的积累 it takes millions of years to accumulate

71:54

才能出现 before it forms,

71:54

我们现在消耗的速度远比那个要快，所以 and we're consuming it far faster than that.

71:58

所以我们肯定是几百 So in a few hundred,

72:00

好像 I think

72:01

两三百年以后就会用完，第二个 two or three hundred years, we'll run out. Second,

72:06

没有一个任何 no system,

72:07

当然我是学运筹学的 of course, I studied operations research,

72:08

可能也有这个原因 so maybe that's why,

72:10

就从计算系统上 but from a systems perspective,

72:12

你不想要单一故障点 you never want a single point of failure.

72:15

那就像很危险的，对吧 That's very dangerous, right?

72:17

就是一个很 It's a very,

72:18

这是一个很脆弱的系统，对吧 a very fragile system, right?

72:21

其实我们是需要有多种原料 We actually need multiple feedstocks.

72:24

如果有多种原料的话 If we have multiple feedstocks,

72:26

对人类来说会更好 it's better for humanity.

72:28

所以从我个人从这个角度来讲 So from my perspective,

72:31

就是我们需要有其他的资源 we need other resources,

72:33

而且其他的原料 other feedstocks,

72:35

其他的资源来能够去用到 other resources we can use

72:38

生产成我们每天用的东西 to make the things we use every day.

72:41

第三点就是 The third point,

72:42

我其实也讲了 which I've mentioned,

72:44

就是现在的人越来越多的 is that people now increasingly,

72:47

就是因为我们的健康 because our health has improved,

72:49

过去这个世纪 over the past century

72:50

基本上预期寿命翻倍了 life expectancy basically doubled.

72:53

而且战争啊什么的 And wars and so on

72:55

也发生得 have become

72:56

要少很多 far less frequent.

72:57

所以原来上个世纪 So last century,

73:00

平均寿命40岁 average life expectancy was 40.

73:01

现在是80岁 Now it's 80.

73:04

而且因为战争啊什么 And with fewer wars,

73:07

所以现在最大的 the biggest cause of

73:08

死亡的就是疾病 death now is disease.

73:10

所以人现在最在乎的 So what people care about most now

73:13

就是健康的问题 is health.

73:14

健康问题，对 Health, right.

73:15

健康问题还不止说是我能够治愈疾病 And health isn't just about whether I can cure disease

73:19

而是我怎么确保我的生活质量 but how I ensure my quality of life.

73:24

就我最好不要得病，我少得病，对吧 Ideally I don't get sick, or at least get sick less, right?

73:27

然后我能够，这个80年我不要20年都是卧床的，对吧 Out of 80 years, I don't want to spend 20 bedridden, right?

73:32

所以现在的年轻人为什么酒也少喝了，烟也少抽了 That's why young people today drink less and smoke less.

73:37

所有的这些运动啊什么的，包括现在那个保健品，都是一个增长的市场 Fitness and all of that, even health supplements, are growing markets.

73:43

就是从消费者的角度，这个健康意识和生活质量 From the consumer's side, health consciousness and quality of life

73:48

正在深入人心，这个需求会起来 are starting to sink in, so the demand will grow.

73:53

那随着，这是一个新的趋势 This is a new trend.

73:56

就是以前大家早上起来，第一担心的是我有没有吃的 People used to wake up worried first about whether they'd have food,

74:00

然后担心我今天会不会有什么战火啊，或者是谁来抢我的东西，然后就死了 then whether war would break out, or someone would rob them and they'd die,

74:06

或者疾病啊 or disease.

74:08

现在大家不担心这个，现在担心我的健康是怎么样 Now nobody worries about that. They worry about their health.

74:11

那么这样的话，大家对这个健康的，而且因为这个石油基的这些化学品的 So people care more about health. And as for petroleum-based chemicals

74:19

这些毒性 and their toxicity,

74:20

现在我们也收集了很多的这方面的数据了 we're now collecting a lot of data on that too.

74:23

就越来越多的人 More and more people

74:25

大家开始意识到说 are starting to realize

74:26

其实这不是一种健康的方式 that this actually isn't a healthy way to live.

74:29

这个是导致问题的 This is what causes problems.

74:30

然后当然我 And of course,

74:31

我老公其实个人有健康问题，对吧？ my husband actually has health issues himself, right?

74:34

所以这个是让我们大家就意识到说 So this made all of us realize

74:38

我们是需要有替代 that we need an alternative.

74:40

我们需要有一个不同的替代方案 We need a different alternative

74:42

能既用到这些东西 that still lets us use these things,

74:44

而不是说像加州那样说 rather than what California does, saying

74:46

你不能用塑料 you can't use plastic,

74:48

那个，然后或者你必须要分这些 or you have to sort things,

74:51

把我这个分成可回收或者不可回收 into recyclable or non-recyclable.

74:53

如果我们从根本上 Fundamentally,

74:55

这些我认为都是叫做打补丁 I see all of that as patchwork.

74:57

所以你只是想去放 You're just trying to put,

75:00

就是你放一个补丁 you put on a patch,

75:02

打补丁，打补丁，打补丁 patch after patch after patch,

75:03

不断地在你现有的系统上打补丁 constantly patching your existing system.

75:05

解决不了问题 It doesn't fix the problem.

75:07

只会制造更多问题 It just creates more problems.

75:10

从根本上我们需要改变的是 Fundamentally, what we need to change is

75:12

用一种不同的制造流程 to use a different manufacturing process.

75:14

而且用生物制造的方式去做的话 And biomanufacturing

75:16

是最能够从根本上解决的方式 is the way to fix it most fundamentally.

75:19

那你举几个例子 So give us a few examples

75:21

就是所谓的生物制造 of so-called biomanufacturing.

75:22

我们能用什么样的东西 What can we use

75:23

制造成什么东西 to make what,

75:25

我们平时能用的这个？ among the things we use every day?

75:27

比如说 For example,

75:28

就我现在投的公司里面 among the companies I've invested in,

75:30

就有不同的 different ones

75:32

用生物制造做成不同的 biomanufacture different things.

75:33

比如说我有公司是用细胞 One of my companies uses cells,

75:37

其实好多的原料就是糖嘛 and the feedstock is mostly just sugar.

75:39

就很简单 Very simple.

75:40

来生产营养保健品 That's how it produces nutraceuticals.

75:42

比如说其实现在已经有很多的 There are already many,

75:44

你的这个 in your,

75:45

就我们在正常用的东西里面就有 in things we use every day.

75:48

比如说洗涤剂，对 Detergent, for example.

75:51

就是你用来洗衣服的里面 What you wash your clothes with

75:52

它其实现在有一些酶 now contains enzymes.

75:55

那些酶实际上是为了让 Those enzymes are there to,

75:57

比如像好比说降低温度 say, lower the temperature,

76:00

所以你就可以用冷水 so you can use cold water

76:02

但是能洗得也更干净 and still get things cleaner.

76:04

这些催化剂 These catalysts,

76:05

去味的那种 the odor-removing kind,

76:06

这些酶 these enzymes,

76:08

现在有一些酶都是 some of them

76:10

已经是生物生产的 are already bio-produced.

76:13

它是用 They're made

76:13

等于是用生物工程的方式 with bioengineering,

76:16

去用细胞来生产 using cells,

76:18

它用发酵 through fermentation.

76:19

其实你可以这么想 Think of it this way:

76:22

就是啤酒，比如说 beer, for example.

76:24

啤酒是用发酵，对吧，啤酒 Beer is made by fermentation, right?

76:27

包括葡萄酒行业 The wine industry too

76:28

其实都是用发酵 uses fermentation.

76:29

它是用一个酵母来去生产 They use yeast to produce it.

76:32

实际上生物工程就是这样 Bioengineering is just like that,

76:34

只不过它是改造过的细胞 except it uses engineered cells,

76:36

改造过的酵母，去生产 engineered yeast, to produce things.

76:39

这样的话它生产出来的，细胞 So the cells

76:40

只生产出其他的化学品 produce other chemicals.

76:42

它生产的不是酒精 Not alcohol,

76:44

生产是其他的化学品 but other chemicals,

76:45

对吧 right?

76:46

实际上就是很多的生物工程 A lot of bioengineering

76:49

它们在用这些细胞来制造 uses these cells to make things,

76:52

设计这个 designing

76:54

这些酵母去优化 and optimizing these yeasts

76:56

就是去生产你感兴趣的特定化学品 to produce the specific chemical you're interested in.

76:59

就是它的生产流程实际上是成熟的 The production process itself is mature.

77:02

只是说我的这个酶 It's just about my enzymes:

77:03

我能不能改造出来这些酵母 can I engineer yeast

77:07

它能生产出这样的化学品 that produces this chemical,

77:11

而且我能不能控制它的生产成本 and can I control the production cost

77:14

能够具备成本效益，和现在的石化产品来比 so it's cost-effective versus today's petrochemicals?

77:19

然后我是认为说它一定会的 And I believe it definitely will be,

77:22

就是从成本上面来讲 on cost.

77:24

而且已经接近了 It's already close,

77:25

而且是一定会的 and it will definitely get there.

77:26

而且在有些地方实际上生物像医药 And in some areas, like medicine,

77:29

实际上像疫苗 vaccines, for instance,

77:31

比如说COVID的疫苗 the COVID vaccine

77:33

也就是生物制造的 is biomanufactured.

77:35

很多的药现在也都是生物制造的 Many drugs today are biomanufactured too.

77:37

最早的其实生物制造的就是胰岛素嘛 The earliest biomanufactured product was insulin.

77:40

胰岛素原来是从这个猪的这个肝里面去提取的，对吧 Insulin used to be extracted from pig livers, right?

77:45

然后如果要是永远是从猪的肝里面去 If it always came from pig livers,

77:48

他们说我们需要的猪比这个全世界人吃的猪要多 they said we'd need more pigs than the whole world eats.

77:53

后来呢他们就找到了一个方式去用细胞来生产 Then they found a way to produce it with cells,

77:58

用生物工程去生产 using bioengineering.

78:00

然后第一，成本反而低了 First, the cost actually went down.

78:02

第二它你用的资源也少了 Second, it uses fewer resources.

78:04

所以它其实有一些本身就是生物制造是更 So some things are inherently better biomanufactured.

78:08

比如说像这个玫瑰精油 Like rose oil

78:12

或者是玫瑰香精 or rose fragrance.

78:14

那你要多少的玫瑰才能提取出一个盎司的？ How many roses do you need to extract one ounce?

78:17

但是用细胞来生产 But with cells,

78:19

现在就是有用细胞来生产 now it's produced with cells,

78:21

实际上它和原来的那个生物的道理是一模一样的 on exactly the same principle as the original biology.

78:25

但生产出来的玫瑰精油它成本就比你去提取要低很多 But the rose oil it makes costs far less than extracting it.

78:28

而且你也不用等这个花去长出来啊，对吧 And you don't have to wait for the flowers to grow, right?

78:33

所以实际上你变成按需生产 So you get on-demand production.

78:35

所以实际上它本身成本就是很低 So the cost is inherently much lower.

78:37

所以技术的发展实际上我认为将来一定会到一定程度 As the technology develops, I believe it will reach a point

78:42

就是我们可以用到生物学 where we can use biology

78:46

用到这种量化生产的方式 for mass production,

78:48

总是把生物学形成了这个工业生产的流程 turning biology into an industrial production process.

78:54

所以你说的这个生态包括技术 So the ecosystem you mean includes the technology,

78:57

然后也包括生产 and also production:

78:59

生产能力和生产制造的这种流程的成熟度 capacity, and how mature the manufacturing process is.

79:04

那你主要是更多的是在这个生产的地方 So you focus more on the production side.

79:06

你是更关注的，是不是 Is it that

79:07

你觉得技术已经这么多年了 you feel the technology has been around for so many years

79:09

已经没有什么太大的问题了是吧 that it's no longer a big problem?

79:10

但是怎么样在生产 And the question is how to

79:12

就制造这个地方再去优化？ optimize manufacturing?

79:14

对，而且能做到两个点 Right, and you need to achieve two things.

79:16

第一你要做到真正的 First, you need a real,

79:18

你能够真的有成本的优势 genuine cost advantage.

79:22

因为没有成本的优势 Because without a cost advantage,

79:23

实际上最终你还是 in the end you still,

79:25

因为大部分的消费者 because most consumers

79:27

他是不能负担去付好多的 can't afford to pay a lot more.

79:29

有些地方是可以的 In some areas they can,

79:31

像药啊像什么的 like drugs and such.

79:33

因为就是有些地方去 Because in some areas

79:34

你已经是比传统的 you're already better than the traditional,

79:35

你反而是比传统的药优 actually better than traditional drugs.

79:37

就刚才我们讲的像胰岛素 Like insulin, which we just talked about.

79:38

你是比传统的药有优势 You have an edge over traditional drugs,

79:41

那你成本也低 and your cost is lower too.

79:42

但是有些地方呢 But in other areas,

79:43

你还没有做到 you're not there yet,

79:45

那所以你要做到这一点，这是第一点 so you need to get there. That's the first point.

79:47

然后第二点 Second,

79:48

如果你能做到成本是一样的 if you can get the cost to be the same

79:51

但是它更健康 but it's healthier,

79:52

而且我能把这个东西 and I can make this thing,

79:54

那所有的人都会换 then everyone will switch.

79:56

没有可能不换，那样 There's no way they won't.

79:57

就是为什么我要去用一个继续 Why would I keep using something

79:59

对我有毒的东西 that's toxic to me

80:01

同样的价格，对吗？ at the same price, right?

80:02

所以实际上更重要的是 So what matters more

80:04

怎么样能够我们找到那些 is finding the things

80:06

能够在替代这些现有的这些东西上面 that can replace what exists today

80:10

它在生产成本上能够接近一致 at nearly the same production cost.

80:15

那么它在接近一致的这个地方呢 And where it's close to parity,

80:18

就一定是有 there's definitely something.

80:19

就是我们现在肯定是不同的产品 Different products

80:22

在不同的时期会有不同的成本 will surely hit different costs at different times.

80:24

那我们现在有哪些类似的产品 So which products today

80:26

其实是已经可以用这种发酵的方式去替代了呢？ can already be replaced through fermentation?

80:31

现在我投的很大的领域里面 Among the big areas I'm investing in,

80:33

最重要的有 the most important include

80:34

好比说营养保健品 nutraceuticals,

80:35

就是一些健康的这个保健品，这一块 that is, health supplements.

80:39

因为好多这些保健品都是从自然里面提取的 A lot of these supplements are extracted from nature.

80:43

它从自然里面提取 Extracted from nature.

80:44

像我们现在在投一个公司 Right now we're investing in a company

80:47

它是做褪黑素，对吧 that makes melatonin, right?

80:48

做褪黑素 Melatonin.

80:50

那这些都是从 These were

80:52

本来是从自然里面提取的 originally extracted from nature.

80:54

但是现在你要用生物制造的方式 But now with biomanufacturing,

80:56

就刚才跟胰岛素似的 just like insulin,

80:57

它可以更好，而且呢 it can be better. And

81:00

从自然里面提取 extracting from nature,

81:01

实际上从 actually,

81:02

就是说从植物啊 from plants

81:03

或者从这些植物上面提取 or plant material,

81:05

还有一个问题，现在我们发现 has another problem. We've found

81:07

就是因为我们的环境已经被污染了 that because our environment is already polluted,

81:10

它这些里面有的时候 sometimes

81:12

你自然提取反而会有农药 natural extracts actually contain pesticides,

81:16

有各种各样的其实不太好的化学品在里面 and all kinds of not-so-good chemicals.

81:21

反而用生物直接生产的 Whereas when it's produced directly with biology,

81:23

因为它只是糖 since it's just sugar,

81:24

它是纯的 It's pure.

81:27

它是100%纯的 It's 100% pure,

81:28

而且没有任何的污染 with no contamination at all.

81:30

所以它其实对人更好 So it actually is better for people,

81:33

同时它成本也更好，对吧 and it's cheaper too, right?

81:35

所以在营养保健品 So that's nutraceuticals.

81:36

然后个人护理 Then personal care.

81:37

比如说我们用的面霜啊 The creams we use

81:39

里面其实它有很多的活性成分 contain a lot of active ingredients.

81:42

在里面，是这样 That's how it is.

81:43

它是可以 It can,

81:44

那些呢 those,

81:45

你不管是用护肤品啊 whether it's skincare

81:47

或者是个人用品啊 or personal products,

81:49

都是因为它的量也不是很大 the volumes aren't very large,

81:54

但是活性成分是一般都是很贵的嘛 but active ingredients are usually very expensive.

81:57

那用这个生物工程生产 Produced with bioengineering,

82:00

它其实成本也是可以控制的 the cost can be controlled,

82:02

也是有竞争力的 and it's competitive.

82:04

还有就是好比说食品风味 Then there's food flavor,

82:07

在这个食品添加剂 food additives,

82:09

在我们吃的里面 things in what we eat.

82:10

实际上像现在包括美国政府 Even the US government

82:13

都刚刚禁了那个石油基的食用色素，对吧，用去 just banned petroleum-based food dyes, right?

82:17

那你什么东西可以说 So what can you use instead?

82:20

那你用生物去生产这些色素 you can produce these dyes with biology.

82:22

你用这些方式 With these methods,

82:24

就有些是监管 in some cases regulation

82:26

已经在禁止 is already outlawing them,

82:27

然后有些是大家也意识到 and in others people are realizing

82:29

它是有这个毒性 there's this toxicity.

82:31

所以在这个食品原料里面 So in food ingredients,

82:34

能够帮助更好的，有更好的营养啊 bio can help add better nutrition,

82:37

或者其他的调味啊 or other flavorings.

82:39

这些也都是香料，香水 These also include fragrances and perfume.

82:41

那么这些东西实际上 These things

82:43

这些就现在已经有很大的市场 already have very large markets.

82:45

然后而且已经有不少的产品 And quite a few products

82:48

在这些品类里面就已经是生物生产的了 in these categories are already bio-produced.

82:52

只不过大家不太清楚 People just don't know,

82:53

因为大部分人就跟我们现在大部分人不知道这个麦子怎么种 just like most of us today don't know how wheat is grown,

82:57

一样的，对吧 right?

82:59

那就是说这些东西其实我们生活中 So in our lives, these things

83:01

就从生活日用品其实就可以开始 can start with everyday products.

83:03

那未来我们会发展到一个什么程度？ How far will this go in the future?

83:05

就是我们现在是日用品 Today it's everyday products.

83:06

那有没有什么未来的一些东西 Are there future things

83:09

就可能也会被这个生物的方式所替代？哇，其实最 that might also be replaced by bio? Wow, actually,

83:14

我觉得最有 I think the most

83:17

可能就是大家也可能科幻的这种想法 likely one is a sci-fi kind of idea:

83:19

就是生物芯片 biochips.

83:22

因为 Because

83:24

用生物芯片 with biochips,

83:25

因为实际上 because actually,

83:26

你想啊 think about it.

83:28

人是一个 A human is,

83:29

其实人的大脑本身是一个电脑，对吧，对，而且 well, the human brain is itself a computer, right? Right.

83:33

而且说实在的 And honestly,

83:34

从生物学的角度 from a biology standpoint,

83:36

我们其实现在已经发现 we've already found

83:37

就是用DNA可以储存很多的数据 that DNA can store a lot of data.

83:41

我们现在唯一不太了解的是 The only thing we don't really understand yet is,

83:43

我们可以用DNA的结构去储存数据 we can use DNA's structure to store data,

83:46

但是我们这个读取的能力很差 but our ability to read it is poor.

83:49

就是 So

83:50

所以我们不能完全用它去替代 we can't fully replace storage with it,

83:53

是因为我们不知道怎么去 because we don't know how

83:55

很好地去提取数据 to extract the data well.

83:57

它能存更大量的数据 It can store far more data.

83:59

实际上它比那个 It's actually

84:00

现在的这个计算存储要更高效 more efficient than today's computing storage,

84:03

但是我要提取就很难 but extracting it is hard.

84:05

那所以 So

84:05

所以现在还没有正式用上 it's not really in use yet.

84:07

但是什么时候我们能搞清楚 But whenever we figure out

84:09

说我也能用这个 how to use it,

84:11

那实际上我就可以用DNA去做 then we could use DNA

84:14

做这个数据储存 for data storage,

84:15

那就大大减少了这个量了，对吧 and that would greatly reduce the volume, right?

84:18

然后生物芯片实际上也可能是，就是 And biochips could also be,

84:20

就我们在讲科幻吧 well, now we're talking science fiction.

84:22

所以就是最终 So ultimately,

84:24

这可能不会是未来十年的东西 this probably won't happen in the next ten years.

84:27

可能就我们在未来二十年三十年以后，但是 Maybe twenty or thirty years from now. But

84:30

有人在做这方面的研究啊 people are researching it.

84:32

最终 Ultimately,

84:32

我真的认为我们的 I really believe,

84:35

就是那天我们在说 like we were saying the other day,

84:37

你能看到的 what you can see,

84:38

你能摸到的 what you can touch,

84:39

你用的 what you use,

84:40

一切都可以由生物学制造 everything can be made from biology.

84:42

而且这生物学的一个好处 And one advantage of biology,

84:44

就是刚才我们讲的 like we just said,

84:45

就是它的资源就在你的周边 is that its resources are all around you.

84:47

你可以用你的厨余垃圾，你可以用各种的 You can use your food waste, all kinds of things.

84:50

你可以用树 You can use trees,

84:51

植物 plants.

84:52

这些都是 With all of these,

84:54

就我们就不缺资源 we're not short on resources.

84:55

我们现在大家讨论 Now people talk about

84:57

什么是丰饶经济？ what the abundance economy is.

84:58

丰饶经济 It's an abundance economy

85:00

因为资源到处都是 because resources are everywhere.

85:02

你可以转化那个资源 You can convert that resource.

85:04

我那天讲的，那天我们说 Like we said the other day,

85:05

就最好将来 ideally, in the future,

85:06

我们甚至每人家里就有一个东西 every home will even have a device.

85:09

你可以把垃圾放进去 You put waste in,

85:10

它可以给你生产一些东西 and it can produce something for you.

85:12

那就像，我是说 That would be like, I mean,

85:14

那可能还要再过50年才会发生 that may not happen for another 50 years,

85:17

但是 but

85:18

那是有可能的对 it is possible. Right.

85:20

就让我突然想到了 That suddenly makes me think of

85:21

就是Neuralink这种东西 something like Neuralink.

85:23

它其实就是在做一个芯片这种东西嘛 It's basically making a chip,

85:24

那它放在脑子里 and it goes in your brain.

85:25

如果用生物的话 If it were made with bio,

85:26

其实它可能跟人的这个 then with the human body,

85:29

应该叫什么 what's it called,

85:29

有的时候会有排斥嘛 there's sometimes rejection,

85:31

这个排斥的问题 that rejection problem,

85:32

有可能也能解决是不是？ could that be solved too?

85:34

对啊 Right.

85:35

你毕竟是一个 After all,

85:36

如果说金属制造的东西 if it's made of metal

85:38

你放在脑子里面 and you put it in your brain,

85:39

会对生物有关系嘛，对，对 it affects your biology. Right, right.

85:42

跟你的这个细胞 With your cells,

85:44

或者说产生互动嘛 it interacts.

85:46

所以将来可能用一种生物的方式 So in the future, maybe a bio-based approach

85:49

去嵌入一个细胞 could embed a cell

85:51

去进到你的这个去做 into your brain to do it.

85:53

这个太科幻了这个，是 That's too sci-fi. Yes,

85:55

但是是有可能的呀 but it is possible.

85:57

我觉得就是说 I think

85:58

如果我们再说100年以后 if we're talking a hundred years from now,

86:01

是有可能的 it's possible.

86:02

我都看看 I wonder,

86:03

看看Elon有没有 whether Elon

86:04

可能他是这种 might be thinking along these lines,

86:05

这种星辰大海 this grand, stars-and-oceans vision.

86:06

但我觉得他还没有 But I don't think he's there yet.

86:08

我觉得他的想法是 I think his idea is

86:09

他想去火星，对吧 that he wants to go to Mars, right?

86:12

他想离开地球 He wants to leave Earth.

86:13

我的想法是 My idea is

86:14

怎么让我们能和我们的地球 how we can coexist

86:17

共处 with our Earth

86:17

然后能够生存得更久 and survive longer.

86:19

因为实际上如果我们呢 Because actually, if we,

86:21

就我一直在讲 I keep saying this,

86:23

我觉得就是过去这个 I think in the past,

86:25

大家讲说 people have said

86:26

拯救地球 save the planet.

86:27

我觉得这是错误的前提 I think it's the wrong premise,

86:29

因为地球已经存在了 because the planet's been around

86:31

几十亿年了 for billions of years.

86:33

我不需要你来拯救 It doesn't need you to save it.

86:36

是人类，我们需要拯救 It's humans, us, who need saving.

86:38

而且人类真的只存在了很短的时间 And humanity has really only been around for a very short time.

86:42

其实我们如果不形成 Unless we form

86:44

跟我们这个地球形成一个真正的共生 a truly symbiotic relationship with our planet,

86:48

所谓的共生的关系 a so-called symbiotic relationship,

86:50

就是用它的资源 where we use its resources,

86:52

然后我们能够回去给它 then give back to it,

86:55

然后它又再重新生产回来给我们 and it regenerates and gives back to us.

86:58

这是一个共生 That's symbiosis.

87:00

如果我们形成了这么一个共生 Only with that kind of symbiosis

87:02

那我跟地球才能是地球的一部分 can we be part of the Earth.

87:05

而生物学就是能够让我们做到这一点 And biology is what's going to enable us to do that.

87:07

这个突然让我想到了 That suddenly reminds me

87:09

我以前见到有一个梗，就是说 of a joke I once saw.

87:11

如果我们反着想的话 If we think about it in reverse,

87:12

就是不是我们在吃这个食物 maybe it's not that we eat the food.

87:15

然后其实是这个食物 Maybe it's the food

87:17

用它自己来养人类 that uses itself to raise humans.

87:19

然后这个人类去世了以后 Then when humans die,

87:21

变成了土 they turn into soil,

87:22

再去养这个植物 which raises the plants.

87:24

到底是谁在食用谁 Who's really eating whom

87:26

这件事情还不好说呢 is hard to say.

87:29

没错 Exactly.

87:30

对，我觉得人类可能有的时候 Right. I think for humans, sometimes

87:31

其实就是一个视角问题 it's really a matter of perspective.

87:32

我们太就是，自我 We're too self-centered.

87:34

对，都是以自我为中心的话 Right. When everything revolves around us,

87:36

我们就觉得所有这个世界都是因为我们才存在 we think the whole world exists because of us.

87:39

其实搞不好 But maybe,

87:40

其实是我们的存在只是在为其他的这个自然界里面的其他东西去做一个支持 our existence is just there to support other things in nature.

87:47

我们其实根本没有那么的重要 We're really not that important.

87:49

这是无知，对吧？对 It's ignorance, right? Right.

87:51

一部分就是因为大家不去看嘛 Partly it's because people don't look.

87:54

他不去那么想 They don't think that way.

87:55

而且实际上真正你要去看历史 And if you really look at history,

87:58

就还是说就是人类是这样的 that's how humanity is.

88:00

我记得有一个人跟我讲 I remember someone told me,

88:02

如果地球的生命是一年的话 if the life of the Earth were one year,

88:04

人类只是最后一秒 humans would be the last second.

88:06

所以实际上我们是多么的渺小对 So we're really so tiny. Right.

88:09

所以就是说就是佛家和道家 So Buddhism and Taoism

88:11

我应该都是有这个概念 both have this idea, I think:

88:12

就是说你一定要是有一个利他思维 you need to think of others,

88:15

因为你如果只是利己的话 because if you only think of yourself,

88:17

你世界会非常非常小的 your world will be very, very small.

88:19

你只有把你的这个关注点，哎呀，我的狗 Only when you shift your focus... oh, my dog.

88:24

Dora，Dora Dora, Dora,

88:26

你下去啊 get down.

88:28

就是我们要把这个关注点 Only when we shift our focus

88:30

从我们自己身上挪开了以后 away from ourselves

88:32

我们才能做更好的事情 can we do better things,

88:34

更大的事情 bigger things.

88:35

就这个才有更有意义的事情 That's what makes things more meaningful.

88:36

这个意义从来都不是往 Meaning has never been about

88:39

就是只关注自己 self-focus.

88:40

这意义永远都是往外看 Meaning always comes from looking outward.

88:42

就像你做这个生物也是 It's like what you do in bio:

88:43

就我们怎么能够这种方式去改变 how can we use this to change

88:46

整个人类 humanity,

88:46

就他人的这个生活，是 other people's lives? Yes.

88:48

然后以这种方式 And once you

88:50

改变了他人生活以后 change other people's lives this way,

88:51

同样他也会反哺到我自己的生活里面 it also feeds back into your own life.

88:53

你看就是有的时候我看网上就会说 Sometimes I see things online,

88:57

什么很多的 lots of people saying

88:59

有一种人和人之间在算计啊 that people calculate with each other:

89:01

就是我要这样做 I'll do this

89:02

对方才会怎么样，我心想 so they'll do that. And I think,

89:04

你这个世界太小了吧 your world is so small.

89:06

就你这样生活真的不累吗 Isn't living like that exhausting?

89:07

就这种 Like this,

89:08

你难道要这样子去 do you really want

89:10

非常在算计中过一辈子 to spend your whole life calculating?

89:11

难道不是应该去 Shouldn't you instead...

89:13

虽然说刚才说这个Steve和这个Elon还有Naval Although we just said Steve, Elon, and Naval

89:17

都是三种不一样的人 are three different kinds of people,

89:18

但是他们好像同样的一个思维 but they seem to share the same mindset:

89:20

就是我要做什么东西能够去造福他人，对，共赢，对 what can I make that benefits others? Right, everybody wins. Right.

89:25

我觉得这个东西是现在特别缺少的一种感觉 I think that's something really lacking these days.

89:28

我觉得你现在做的其实也是嘛 And what you're doing now is like that too,

89:30

就是这个生物这个东西 this bio thing.

89:32

其实那次我记得我和那个 I remember that time,

89:34

就是咱们还有Anthony you, Anthony, and me,

89:35

我们三个一会儿在开会的时候 the three of us were in a meeting,

89:38

就Anthony就说了一句 and Anthony said,

89:39

就说Veronica不需要工作 "Veronica doesn't need to work."

89:42

就是你们其实根本不需要再去工作了嘛 You really don't need to work anymore.

89:46

你们可以非常开心地就在自己的资源里面去养老啊 You could retire happily on your own resources,

89:50

就是带带狗啊 walk the dogs.

89:52

就是这种生活就很好 That kind of life would be great.

89:54

但是你还是选择去做这件事情 But you still choose to do this.

89:56

我觉得就是因为有了 I think it's because,

89:58

其实也是很幸运 actually, I was very lucky.

90:00

我觉得因为你到了一定 Once you reach a certain,

90:02

我觉得一定的积累吧 a certain level of accumulation,

90:04

就是它给你自由去思考你真正 it gives you freedom to think about what you really want.

90:09

就是现在等于是大家都讲传承，对吧？ Now everyone talks about legacy, right?

90:12

你到底为什么而来？ What are you really here for?

90:14

因为我觉得我四十岁的时候 Because at forty,

90:16

就是其实我觉得也 actually, I think

90:18

我也是挺运气的啊 I was pretty lucky,

90:19

因为四十岁的时候 because at forty,

90:21

我觉得苹果 Apple,

90:22

我加入苹果的时候 when I joined Apple,

90:23

苹果是一个300亿美元的公司？ Apple was a $30 billion company.

90:27

三百亿 $30 billion.

90:29

我离开苹果的时候 When I left Apple,

90:30

苹果是六千亿 it was $600 billion.

90:32

嗯 Mm-hm.

90:33

但现在就更多了，万亿 And now it's even more, trillions.

90:35

但是不管怎样 But anyway,

90:36

我四十岁的时候 when I was forty,

90:37

苹果那个时候好像是两千亿 Apple was around $200 billion.

90:41

然后就是已经涨了将近十倍了 It was already up almost tenfold.

90:44

我非常幸运 I was very lucky.

90:45

所以我在进入苹果的时候 When I joined Apple,

90:47

我谈了一个非常好的期权包 I negotiated a very nice option package.

90:50

然后所以我原来有 And so I had,

90:52

就是我一直就 I'd always,

90:54

因为我学数学的嘛 because I studied math,

90:55

所以我 so,

90:55

我很早以前 long ago,

90:57

就是我进到McKinsey（麦肯锡）的时候 when I joined McKinsey,

90:59

我那个时候就 back then,

91:00

我有个朋友说 a friend told me

91:01

你应该有一个数 I should have a number,

91:02

然后到了那个数以后 and once I hit that number,

91:02

你就可以退休 I could retire.

91:04

然后我就算了一个数 So I worked out a number,

91:05

我什么时候可以退休 when I could retire.

91:08

然后我四十岁的时候呢 And at forty,

91:09

我就发现说 I realized

91:10

那个数已经到了 I'd already hit that number.

91:12

然后 And then,

91:13

我要做什么？ what am I going to do?

91:15

就像 Like,

91:15

我为什么活着？ why am I alive?

91:18

然后所以那个时候是我开始 That's when I started,

91:20

真的开始了解佛教啊 really started learning about Buddhism,

91:23

更深入地进到道教 went deeper into Taoism,

91:25

包括我去印度 even went to India,

91:26

去到一个静修院 to an ashram

91:27

然后在班加罗尔那边 near Bangalore.

91:29

然后大概一个星期的止语 Like a week of silence,

91:32

然后服务 service,

91:34

然后做这个冥想啊 and meditation.

91:36

我也想去，下次叫上我 I want to go too. Take me next time.

91:38

然后但是就是 But

91:41

就花了大概一两年 it took me about a year or two

91:43

能够真正的等于静下来想想自己想干什么 to really quiet down and think about what I wanted to do.

91:47

其实也没想那么清楚 I didn't figure it all out,

91:49

但是就发现说 but I found that

91:50

就像你说的 like you said,

91:51

就是实际上 actually,

91:54

确实就是有一个跟随你的本心 you really do have to follow your heart,

91:56

就是什么让你更有热情的 what you're passionate about.

92:00

然后真正有热情 When you're truly passionate,

92:02

你才能做到，因为 you can do it, because,

92:04

不是因为 not because,

92:05

就是因为 because,

92:07

像Steve也说 as Steve also said,

92:08

跟随你的内心 follow your heart.

92:09

不是说你真的要得到什么，而是说 It's not that you want to gain something,

92:12

你真的觉得它是 it's that you really find it to be

92:16

一件有意义的、你想 something meaningful,

92:17

做的事 something you want to do.

92:18

所以我觉得那个时候就是 So I think back then,

92:21

而且那个时候让我理解了好多中文的智慧，比如说 that time helped me understand a lot of Chinese wisdom.

92:28

特别简单一个东西 A very simple one

92:29

就是咱们老说的一个事就是修行，对 is a word we always use: cultivation, right.

92:32

你修行了的话 If you've cultivated yourself,

92:33

你这个人很有修行 you're a very cultivated person.

92:35

其实修行 Actually, cultivation

92:36

以前就是修行就是一个词 used to be just a word.

92:39

后来 Later,

92:40

后来说什么是修行？ the question was, what is cultivation?

92:42

修改行为 Correcting your conduct.

92:43

就是其实是修行是说 Cultivation means

92:46

你自己要修改行为 correcting your own conduct.

92:47

不是别人 Not other people's.

92:49

是自己要去修，觉悟，觉悟是什么？ You correct yourself. And awakening, what is awakening?

92:52

觉知然后领悟 Awareness, then realization.

92:53

你没有觉知就不会领悟 Without awareness, there's no realization.

92:56

就是你要先有觉知 You first have to have awareness

92:57

才有开悟，对 before you can have enlightenment. Right.

92:59

然后这个觉知和领悟的中间的过程就是修行，所以 And the process between awareness and realization is cultivation.

93:04

所以我觉得就是通过了就是自己 So through my own

93:08

这些冥想啊什么的 meditation and so on,

93:10

就发现了 I discovered this.

93:11

而且就是我记得有一次 And I remember once,

93:13

我有一天早上我在冥想 one morning I was meditating.

93:14

因为我的那个老师让我读《心经》嘛 My teacher had me read the Heart Sutra,

93:18

就背《心经》，嗯 memorize it. Mm-hm.

93:20

然后有一天我就 And I would

93:21

每天都在背 recite it every day.

93:23

然后那天早上我在背的时候 That morning, as I was reciting it,

93:26

突然 suddenly,

93:27

因为其实有的时候背的时候 because sometimes when you recite,

93:28

你并不知道它说的什么意思 you don't really know what it means.

93:30

你就在那背嘛 You're just reciting.

93:32

但是背久了 But after reciting for a long time,

93:32

我发现中文有一个这个概念 I found Chinese has this idea:

93:34

就是你背久了 recite long enough,

93:35

可能会突然有一天领悟一个东西 and one day you may suddenly understand something.

93:37

是这样的 That's right.

93:38

然后那天就突然 And that day, suddenly,

93:40

就在我在背这个色不异空，空不异色 as I was reciting, form is not other than emptiness,

93:43

色即是空，空即是色 form is emptiness, emptiness is form,

93:44

就突然就好像五千年的历史在我眼前 it was as if five thousand years of history

93:47

哗一过，嗯 flashed before my eyes.

93:49

然后我就突然理解了什么叫色不异空，空不异色 And I suddenly understood what it means:

93:52

色即是空，空即是色，就是 form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

93:55

没有任何东西是永恒的 Nothing is permanent.

93:57

你眼前看到的 What you see in front of you

94:00

可能一百年后只是一个，像 may be gone in a hundred years.

94:02

一百年前就不是了，对吧 It wasn't here a hundred years ago, right?

94:04

一百年前不是 Not a hundred years ago,

94:05

一百年后也不是这样的 and not a hundred years from now.

94:07

所以色就是空 So form is emptiness,

94:09

因为它其实不存在 because it doesn't really exist.

94:11

空就是色 And emptiness is form,

94:12

就这个空间将来也可能有东西 because this empty space may hold something in the future.

94:14

所以你的重点不是去看它现在的色相 So the point is not to look at its current form,

94:18

而是看，像 but to look at,

94:19

就是刚才我们也讲 like we said earlier,

94:21

到底是什么导致了它 what actually caused it,

94:23

什么会是底层的驱动力 what's going to be the underlying driver.

94:26

那是真正会让你去看明白 That's what really enables you to see

94:29

什么时候它会变成东西 when something will come into being,

94:31

什么时候它会变成没有 and when it will be gone,

94:33

什么东西是值得的 what's worth it,

94:34

就是意味着是有意义的 meaning what's meaningful,

94:36

什么东西是真正有意义的，所以 what's actually meaningful.

94:39

所以我个人就觉得说这个 So personally, I think

94:42

其实就是冥想啊 meditation

94:43

什么这些东西对我也是 and these practices

94:45

真的是帮助了很多 really helped me a lot.

94:46

就是让我更多的去发现 They helped me discover

94:49

什么东西是真正让我能够有 what I'm truly

94:53

热情去做的 passionate about doing.

94:55

然后而且我觉得当我真正去跟随这个 And when I truly follow

94:58

我自己的热情 my own passion,

94:59

而不是说我为了 rather than working

95:00

为了生活啊 just to make a living,

95:02

我也很幸运啊 I'm also lucky

95:03

又能到这种地步啊 to have gotten to that point.

95:04

那个时候 At that point,

95:06

就自己在做的一些事情 the things I'm doing,

95:07

就我觉得自己 I feel,

95:08

一个是自己觉得它有意义 for one, they're meaningful to me,

95:10

然后自己觉得自己生活有意义 and my life feels meaningful.

95:13

然后另外的话就是 And another thing:

95:14

那个就跟我老公说 my husband

95:17

说我工作狂啊 calls me a workaholic.

95:18

但是我觉得其实 But I think

95:20

当你喜欢做一件事的时候 when you love doing something,

95:22

你在做的时候 while you're doing it,

95:22

它不是工作，对 it's not work. Right.

95:24

它工作就是生活 Work is life,

95:25

工作就是乐趣 work is fun.

95:26

我很开心 I'm having fun.

95:27

所以就 So

95:28

我不觉得我在工作，对 I don't feel like I'm working. Right.

95:31

对 Right,

95:31

就是这种感觉 that's the feeling.

95:32

所以你刚才说 You said earlier

95:33

你很幸运 that you were lucky.

95:34

说实话哈 Honestly,

95:35

这个也是我发现的一个很 that's something I've noticed,

95:37

很 a very,

95:39

就是有矛盾的点 a point that feels contradictory.

95:41

不是说你哈，就是说 Not you specifically, but

95:43

很多人在做成一件事情的时候 when many people succeed at something,

95:45

你会感觉到那种幸运，很多人都说 they feel it was luck. A lot of people say

95:48

我做完这件事情就是一种 what I did was just,

95:49

我做成这件事情就是一种运气 what I achieved was just luck.

95:51

但我觉得并不是这样的 But I don't think that's true.

95:52

就是他那个运气是来自于 That luck comes from

95:55

他自己心态的一个变化 a change in their own mindset.

95:56

这个变化会让你所有的事情会变得，阻碍 That change makes the obstacles in everything

96:00

好像就不那么多了 seem fewer.

96:01

你只能看见那个运气 You only see the luck,

96:03

然后到最后你就会发现 and in the end you think,

96:04

我好幸运 I'm so lucky.

96:05

但是其实我觉得并不是 But really, I don't think that's it.

96:06

你心态变了以后 Once your mindset changes,

96:08

好像很多小的事情 a lot of small things,

96:09

你就再也看不到它是阻碍，它就是一个 you no longer see them as obstacles. They're just

96:12

就是需要解决 things to solve,

96:13

或者不需要，无所谓 or not. It doesn't matter.

96:14

它不会困扰到我内心的这种感觉 They don't bother you inside.

96:17

哇，所以佛教讲要发愿嘛 Wow. That's why Buddhism talks about making a vow.

96:19

你要先有愿 You first need a vow.

96:21

对 Right.

96:21

你想做什么 Whatever you want to do,

96:22

你要先有一个愿 first you need a vow.

96:23

有了愿以后 Once you have one,

96:25

就像你说的 like you said,

96:25

它可能会影响到 it can shape,

96:26

你的选择，自然地会影响到 it naturally shapes

96:29

你的选择和身边的 your choices and the people around you.

96:30

就所谓修行实际上 That's what cultivation really is:

96:31

就是当你修改你的行为的时候 when you correct your own conduct,

96:33

因为物理学就是有吧 because physics says

96:35

就是每一个作用都有一个反作用 for every action, there's a reaction.

96:38

你改变你的行为 Change your actions,

96:39

你变周围的环境就会变 and the environment around you changes.

96:42

那所以你会影响到周围的环境的变化 So you influence the changes around you,

96:45

它会影响到未来 and that influences

96:47

可能你去选择的，对 the choices you might make in the future. Right.

96:49

我觉得所有东西 I think everything,

96:49

我之前有一个概念 I have this idea,

96:51

我就一直这么觉得 I've always felt this way,

96:51

我觉得所有东西都是一个关系 that everything is a relationship.

96:54

不管是你每一个细胞 Whether it's each of your cells,

96:55

还是说你每个分子 each molecule,

96:57

你的这个原子，质子，中子 your atoms, protons, neutrons,

96:59

其实都是以关系的 they're all connected

97:01

这种形式去连在一起的 through relationships.

97:03

你没有这个关系 Without relationships...

97:05

比如说我们两个的关系 Like the relationship between the two of us,

97:06

我和我的狗的关系 between me and my dog,

97:08

或者你看我现在 or look at

97:09

我家里的这种风格 the style of my home now.

97:10

都是在建立不同的关系 It's all about building different relationships.

97:12

你把关系建立好了 If you build your relationships well,

97:13

那你生活不好 it's hard for your life

97:14

是很难的 not to be good.

97:17

所以我觉得这个跟道家讲的就是一 So this matches what Taoism says about the One.

97:20

其实我们都是相连的 Actually, we're all connected.

97:22

对，是这样的 Right, that's it.

97:23

每个人都是相连的 Everybody's connected,

97:25

而且每个人都是一体的 and everybody is one.

97:26

就是所以你 So

97:27

不管是那个人对你好，还是不好 whether that person treats you well or not,

97:29

他们仍然是你的一部分 they're still part of you.

97:30

对，是这样的 Right, exactly.

97:32

一切都是你的一部分，所以你 Everything is part of you. So

97:35

我不知道这个是佛家 I don't know if it's Buddhism

97:37

还是包括基督教 or Christianity as well, but

97:39

很多的宗教都讲博爱嘛，大爱 many religions talk about universal love, great love.

97:41

大爱就是因为 Great love is possible

97:43

你能够去爱 because you can love,

97:45

爱是因为你知道它就是本身 and you love because you know it's already

97:47

就是你的一部分 part of you.

97:49

是这样的 Exactly.

97:49

就是说我们其实是 We're actually

97:50

都相连的，对 all connected. Right.

97:52

我们其实是一个大的这个意识 We're one big consciousness,

97:56

在世间的不同的呈现形态而已，没错，对 just in different forms in this world. Exactly, right.

97:59

这是个很好的收尾 That's a great way to wrap up.

98:01

我们就讲到这了 Let's end here.

98:02

我去吃饭了 I'm going to go eat.

98:02

要不要再聊了 Want to keep talking?

98:04

好 OK.

98:05

跟你聊得挺好的，对 I really enjoyed talking with you. Yeah.

98:06

什么都聊到了，好的，好的 We covered everything. OK, great.